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RfC: Using samples to identify songs in song articles
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Main question (samples)
Especially per WP:NFC#CS and/or WP:NFCC#8, using a non-free sample for purposes of identification in an article about a song must be allowed. Acceptable, unacceptable, or neither? With (as still often) or without commentary? --George Ho (talk) 17:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC) (timestamped for RFC)
(will add RfC tag and timestamp after some votes)
Background (samples)
The matter of using non-free samples, especially in song articles, have been previously discussed, especially in the following dates: December 2020, June 2021 (TfD), December 2021 (WT:WPSONGS), December 2021 (WT:VPP). Proposals or attempted changes to restrict usage of samples have failed and/or been reverted and/or been opposed AFAIK. I have been PRODding non-free samples and/or taking said samples to FFD. Many times I've seen, FFD-nominated samples have been deleted, even without votes, and PRODded samples have been deleted without contest. Other times my PROD and FFD nominations on samples have been challenged, even with just one vote.
When one sample was de-PRODded, I initially discussed improving the song article especially to justify usage of the sample. Instead, the discussion became more about (resolving broader issue of) using samples especially for identification purposes. I started the pre-RfC discussion about drafting, locating, and scoping this discussion. Well, I was initially reluctant to re-discuss broader issues of samples, but then scoping and resolving the issue became focal points of the pre-RfC discussion, resulting in this discussion. George Ho (talk) 08:05, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
Almost forgot: to this date, the acceptable samples to use are ones accompanied by appropriate sourced commentary and attributed to the copyright holder
, and unacceptable samples are ones part of an excessive number of short audio clips in a single article
. That's much about using samples appropriately. --George Ho (talk) 10:59, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
With commentary
- Formerly "Acceptable with commentary"
- Support for non-song articles - for a sample to be used in an article, the article should either be about the song or, if it's not an article about the song, then the article needs to have some non-trivial amount of commentary about the song, in order for the sample of the song to qualify as fair use, IMO. Also, if it's not an article about the song, and there is no commentary, then I don't understand why we'd have a sample of the song in the article, as that seems like it would be confusing to the reader. I believe this is the status quo. Levivich 18:06, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support – I think we should use the same approach film and TV articles tend to use when including stills or clips from the relevant work: if there is commentary about it that only makes sense with a visual comparison, it should be included. However, I don't think clips should be included solely for the purposes of identification. I know that TV articles have trended away from including screenshots in infoboxes solely for identification, and I think this is similar to that. Single covers are better for identification, in my opinion, because they don't replace the main product (the song) and therefore should be easier to defend under fair use. Masem also makes good points below. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:16, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support - per 100% of what Levivich has said (rather well) above.
I would only add that: since fair use is only allowed in one single article, preference should be given to the article about the song, if one exists or comes to exist, and in such a case where another does have suffecient relevant commentary to otherwise justify fair use, that article would need to link to the song specific article to avail its readers to the fair use sample.Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 18:56, 3 April 2022 (UTC) Refactored by striking misstatement given in error.--John Cline (talk) 06:44, 4 April 2022 (UTC)- Addendum - To further clarify: whether the commentary exists solely within the article's prose, as a caption within the sample's frame, or in both forms simultaneously should be a matter of editorial discretion, decided locally, on a case by case basis. Style guides and editing guidelines should not assert a preference or influence the decision either way beyond stating the equal appropriateness for either option. Cheers.--John Cline (talk) 05:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support as the only allowance, and this should be specific commentary about the sample of the song clip used (eg a strong example is In the Air Tonight which the clip features the drum solo that is commented in depth within the article. I would remind editors that we do not work under a fair use principle but under the WMF resolution which is to minimize the use of non-free which is purposely stricter than fair use. --Masem (t) 20:58, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- To add, in light if those in favor of adding samples without need for commentary, we already restrict articles on visual works from using screencaps without commentary specifically about the contents of the Screencast. I would fully expect the same for audio samples.--Masem (t) 13:19, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Honestly, I don't know whether to favor or oppose using samples generally. Requiring commentary should be status quo if that's the way to include samples properly. Still, the assumption that readers won't understand commentary without a sample is... something I have struggled with. Nonetheless, such usage has been accepted, yet failure to comply with NFCC can still override such acceptance (WP:NFCI). Hey! If everyone accepts this option, so be it then. --George Ho (talk) 11:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- I have to agree with others who so far have said there has to be context to the sample given. It is not sufficient that the sample match the song being discussed; it must be actively discussed, its content dissected in and of itself. The commentary need not be all that complex or deep, it just needs to be present and resonate with the reader such that it is obvious that it correctly refers to the material present in the sample. I find this is less about ensuring reader comprehension and more about avoiding legal hot water, to better comply with fair use rules. As far as I am aware, that is how we have always done this, we are deliberately very careful and picky with our use of samples — I would honestly bet fewer than .001% of our article content even has any — and whether we make more of a habit to do this or not, this is how we have been doing it and this is how we should continue doing it. I think we should also investigate using as little of a song as possible, and not push it all the way to the thirty-second limit that I believe is currently in use; if ten or even five seconds would do, we should only use that much. That's entirely going to be case-by-case, but that has always been the way too. This, to my understanding, has been the crux of the discussion; I admit I am a little bit confused and concerned that I may have missed something important, in which case I would gladly recant this post and write another. I'm mainly looking at the first post in this subsection as I feel a bit puzzled by "Support for non-song articles", only for the poster to then say it's odd we would even be using song samples for articles that are not about songs. Levivich, could you please clarify for me? Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 05:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Zeke, the Mad Horrorist: It'd be odd we would even be using song samples for articles that are not about the song and have no commentary about the song. An example of a non-song article would be an article about an album, which might have commentary about songs in that album even if those songs don't have their own stand-alone pages. Levivich 16:27, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Fully agree. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page because I found your post a little confusing. Thank you for clarifying. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 17:57, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Zeke, the Mad Horrorist: It'd be odd we would even be using song samples for articles that are not about the song and have no commentary about the song. An example of a non-song article would be an article about an album, which might have commentary about songs in that album even if those songs don't have their own stand-alone pages. Levivich 16:27, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- It is not a very onerous requirement to comment on the song in an article about a song, so perhaps we should ask for commentary. Having said that, I think the argument to include sounds samples "for identification" in song articles is stronger than the argument to include cover images. —Kusma (talk) 19:34, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Somewhat support, and also subject to the normal requirement that the nonfree material provide something that the text alone could not. For generic pop songs where there's little discussion of the actual sound and structuring of the song, nonfree material should not be used just for "identification". On the other end of the scale, something like Bohemian Rhapsody, where there is extensive sourced commentary on the sound and structure of the song itself, it is possible to even justify more than one. In most cases, if there is substantial sourced commentary on unique factors in the sound of the song, one brief nonfree sample is likely to be justifiable. If not, and the sources tend to focus on how much it was played, sold, etc., even one couldn't be. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:34, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support samples accompanied by commentary. They are especially useful to illustrate a musical point made in the literature on the topic. If they are simply used to identify a song, then we don't need the sample, because we probably already have an external link to YouTube or similar. Binksternet (talk) 15:24, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support; There is no general allowance for such non-free content, nor should there be. We are a free content resource, not a resource to post as much non-free content as we like. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:17, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
Without commentary
- Formerly "Acceptable without commentary"
- Support. No one complains about how we upload album covers without commentary. Why are song samples different? ili (talk) 17:54, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- We tend to favor having sections that describe album covers as that is considered encyclopedic. The scans uploaded tend to be of extremely low resolution so we can further identify what we are talking about, but nobody can possibly steal them or think we are using them in some way not permitted by the respective copyright holder. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 05:15, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support for song articles because an article about a song is not complete without an audio sample of the song; every song article should have one; a song article without a sample is like an article about a painting without an image of the painting. I don't see the need for a "commentary" requirement for song articles because the article is the commentary needed for fair use, IMO. For non-song articles, such as articles about musicians or albums, then I think some amount of commentary about the song is required to justify including a sample of the song as fair use. Levivich 18:13, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support for most of the reasons already given. I also like the differentiation (below) proposed between length of samples with and without commentary. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:29, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support. I agree with Levivich that a song article without a sample is like an article about a painting without an image of the painting. Benjamin (talk) 04:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose.
There are enough samples already.No sample can prevent readers from seeking a full song. An article may not provide the same context that an actual song provides, but it still identifies a song alongside a cover art. Furthermore, an article and a sample provide the same purpose: driving readers into seeking the full song described by an article about it. An article should've made a sample redundant unless supported by commentary. Too bad I've seen demand of samples rising lately. --George Ho (talk) 11:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)- Striking out the "enough samples" statement, which may be less clear. --George Ho (talk) 16:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Belated addendum - To clarify further, I'll use one FFD discussion as an example for my argument. One sample (of a recording by Metallica) was removed from a song article but was retained for the genre article New wave of British heavy metal, indicating that omitting the sample from the song article still doesn't affect readers' understanding of the song. A cover art and stand-alone article about a song adequately helps readers understanding the song, especially just by reading the song title used as the article title. A reader can hear the sample and still seek the full song, so I don't see how and why a sample without commentary is necessary. On the other hand, a sample of There Would Be No New China Without Communist Party was kept by default in another FFD discussion, even without adequate commentary IMO, because one thought the sample adequately conveys the song's patriotic style. --George Ho (talk) 19:56, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
- More addendum - Just in case, I would choose case-by-case as an alternative option, especially if the result of the "without commentary" is no consensus. --George Ho (talk) 19:28, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support. The fair use defense is not bulletproof, nor can we really rely on it. On YouTube, videos that specifically focus on commentary (or even parody) of songs get taken down all the time via DMCA claims that are usually upheld. In practice, the purpose of the fair use defense is to provide an argumentative basis for an attorney to challenge copyright litigation in court. Rarely if ever does it provide a system under which copyrighted content can be uploaded to the Internet without being challenged. With that being the case, samples - provided they are not of unreasonable length - will likely not cause sufficient ire to provoke legal teams at the big record labels to wake up Wikimedia Legal and initiate an office action. For those samples that are taken down, I doubt whether or not it contains commentary would make much of a difference. I am a little puzzled at George Ho's rationale above that we have "enough samples already". Did we stop making music at some point in human history and I missed it, or do we have some hard cap on music samples in Wikipedia's server space?--WaltCip-(talk) 14:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP does not operate on fair use but on a Non Free policy which per the WMF, has the goal of minimizing the amount of nonfree licensed works on WP. Accommodating fair use elements fits into this goal but the policy is explicitly more strict than fair use to get editor to avoid inclusion if non free unless when necessary (when it meets the 10 criteria of NFCC). --Masem (t) 14:49, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- To that end, I feel whether or not commentary is present for a given sample would be immaterial. The judgment would or should instead be whether or not the encyclopedic pursuit of human knowledge is insufficiently satisfied from not hearing a part of the song. That could be supported with or without commentary. WaltCip-(talk) 14:56, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Which, at the core of this discussion, is whether having merely a notable standalone article about a song meets the two part test if WP:NFCC#8. Clearly having the sample present can help the readers understanding, but the question really is on the second prong, is the reader's understanding harmed by the absence of the sample without the presence of commentary on the sample itself? --Masem (t) 15:01, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- To that end, I feel whether or not commentary is present for a given sample would be immaterial. The judgment would or should instead be whether or not the encyclopedic pursuit of human knowledge is insufficiently satisfied from not hearing a part of the song. That could be supported with or without commentary. WaltCip-(talk) 14:56, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- YouTube do not attempt to support their creators: their moderation is designed to be as cheap as possible, because of the profit incentive. They often remove things more stringently than their own rules, let alone the law. In contrast, we should hope that Wikimedia Legal would defend the content we write and support volunteers whose good faith work leads them into legal trouble (though I can't think of any concrete cases of the latter). Essentially, my point is that YouTube taking a video down after a DMCA claim is received or an internal algorithm flags it up has nothing to do with whether the video was fair use. — Bilorv (talk) 23:39, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Case in point Bungie found their own content flagged for DMCA violations on YouTube due to someone that spoofed credentials, showing how broken the YouTube system is. --Masem (t) 00:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think OP meant "enough samples [of copyrighted material] already". The keyword is "non-free". I don't find there's a "hard cap", as you put it, except possibly as the WMF servers are able to handle things, which if truly an issue would be a different conversation altogether. A better term might be "soft cap", that is, one we apply ourselves to avoid running the risk of straining our resources or, more relevant to this discussion, running afoul of fair use laws. The concern here is whether copyrighted material needs visible and verbal justification as much as possible, and whether it provides any more educational or informative value to the reader in conjunction with a sample.
- I think another interesting point is whether the presence of commentary on a sample is enough to support a rationale of fair use. It would definitely vary case by case as to whether sufficient commentary had been provided, and my solution would be more is better than less. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 05:27, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP does not operate on fair use but on a Non Free policy which per the WMF, has the goal of minimizing the amount of nonfree licensed works on WP. Accommodating fair use elements fits into this goal but the policy is explicitly more strict than fair use to get editor to avoid inclusion if non free unless when necessary (when it meets the 10 criteria of NFCC). --Masem (t) 14:49, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support (2nd choice), first choice is my alternative proposal below. If the article is about a song, having a short sample of that song seems useful for the reader's understanding regardless of whether we discuss the specific sample. And I do think that the reader's understanding is harmed without it. I also think we would be well within our fair use rights, but see my comments in the alternative proposal below. Nosferattus (talk) 15:32, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support – A recording is just as important in identifying a song or piece as a photo is in identifying the subject of a biography. Graham (talk) 02:10, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
Oppose I think we need to be very careful here. We're not dealing with something tangential here, we are dealing with the very thing itself, that has been created for money to be a commercial thing. And we would be taking and reproducing the essence of it, systematically and at scale and without commentary. IMO Wikipedia has a useful reputation for caring about copyright, and being sparing about how we use other people's (in addition to the distinct NFC #1 imperative). We're not trying to dance the line on copyright, and (thanks to the NFC) I think it's widely respected that our use here is well within the line. Fair use is famously a flexible doctrine and about balances between different factors. For most content I think our general criterion is right -- that the content needs to be adding something significant to the encyclopedic understanding of the topic, and be no more than needed to achieve that purpose. But here, because our taking would be so much closer to the commercial essence of the thing (cf NFC #2), I think we need to be more cautious. Quotation to support commentary or criticism or review, so long as no more is taken than is strictly needed to support that purpose, I think must be okay, as those are the core treaty exceptions to copyright. But given the nature and commerciality of the copyright taking, I don't think we can go beyond that. If we just want somebody to hear what the song sounds like, I think we have to expect them to go to Spotify, or to YouTube and endure the ads there (ie the normal commercial exploitation of the work, as the jargon has it). We cannot supplant that, and if we care about our reputation for being sparing when it comes to other people's copyright, we should not attempt to.
In respect of User:Nosferattus' proposal below that we might allow very short extracts if there is no commentary, I have some sympathy with their post, and in particular that there is a trade-off between "purpose of use" and acceptable "amount and substantiality". But IMO 30 seconds normally would exceed what should be acceptable even with commentary; while IMO what should be acceptable without commentary I think would be too little for identification. If a track has a particularly distinctive intro or hook or riff or breakdown, then find some commentary on it. Above all, as above, if we care about our reputation for being sparing about copyright, it would be best if as a rule most articles did not contain extracts. Jheald (talk) 16:57, 8 April 2022 (UTC)- Support per Levivich --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:22, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- I don't have a particular problem with it as long as it's short and sweet. Stifle (talk) 09:55, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support - If we're only talking about articles about songs, the reviews, criticisms, analyses, etc. about the song .... are commentary on the song. If "commentary" here means something more specific, then no, I don't think we should be necessary. I don't think we need to drill down to ask whether each second was specifically discussed by a reviewer. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose We already have a hard enough time policing barely notable articles about obscure musicians; I hardly expect us to do a better job of curating and ensuring policy compliance with millions of song snippets. If a reader wishes to hear a song, they are welcome to find it on Google/Spotify/YouTube/turntable/CD/tape-cassette/gramophone etc. Otherwise, I think it is ill-conceived for us to open the floor to song samples in general. I can easily envision the sorts of SPA's and vandals that having song snippets on modern music pages would bring. Imagine an edit war with someone who thinks their 30 seconds of "I like to move it move it" is superior to the previous snippet. We don't have this problem with songs in the public domain because the whole song can be uploaded, and usually said songs are pretty stuffy (aka real old) and thus don't inspire fierce fighting. Further, we are not a music repository, and I hesitate to shift our focus too far away from the written word. Media may improve our articles, but only to a point. I think the downsides far outweigh any benefit.
This doesn't line up with our stance on copyright law either. We have long been stricter than is perhaps legally necessary, because 1) we really really really don't want any chance of being sued; 2) we push for modernization of copyright law; 3) we exist on the premise that anyone, even for material gain, may copy our entire website with attribution; 4) we set a positive example for the internet. Having more non-free content pushes us closer to the line on all of these issues. Given the difficulties in administering a vast catalogue of song snippets, and the blow to our copyright principles, this cannot be a positive direction for us to take. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 08:00, 15 April 2022 (UTC) - Weak support in song articles up to the minimum of 10% or 30 seconds, where fair use is met (this requires some article content—let's say Start-class or better). This is no different from a front cover of a book or image of a painting, bar the medium (audio). The whole article is commentary on the song, and the song can serve as primary audio identification just as a book's cover serves as visual identification (only better, as songs don't have completely different "editions"). However, I would expect audio to be uploaded manually with editorial discretion—a bot or meatbot uploading the first 10%/30s of 100,000 songs is not okay, but an experienced editor uploading dozens of key extracts mostly from the choruses of songs is. To turn to objections: I have never encountered an edit war over song snippets, nor do I know of any SPAs or vandals who operate in that area (though I can name a few music-related SPAs who favour much quicker and impulsive forms of vandalism). We're not aiming for the sample to replace the readers' need to hear the whole song. And with paintings and such we do recreate other forms of non-free content that is the commercial product itself, in snippets or at lower quality. Consider this comment also a strong support for the status quo of allowing use with commentary. — Bilorv (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- It needs to be pointed out again that WP (nor any WMF project) operate at all under the concept of fair use. Fair use informs our non-free principles and we already establish 10%/30 s in our audio sampling for non-free policies, and I can pretty much assure that dropping a sample of that length and of lower quality used on a tertiary research source like en.wiki to fail the fair use defense principle, meaning that when arguing "where fair use is met" is effectively a no-effort bar beyond having a standalone article. We have to remember that given that nearly all the time we can provide external links to an official version of a song, that a freer version of a non-free sample of a song may be that type of link itself. The commentary requirment from NFCC#8 only helps when the sample itself is of discussion within the article. --Masem (t) 19:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Masem: as I understand it, fair use is a legal requirement, so WP cannot ever fall below this threshold. I understand that we generally operate far above it. However, I would say that a song article with only the content "This is a song.[1][2]" and a 30 second extract does not meet fair use (even though the refs may prove notability); thus, the article has to have some relevant content. It seems that you agree that requiring Start-class or better would easily show fair use is met. — Bilorv (talk) 08:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- But again, we aren't looking at fair use as the standard, we are looking at non-free which is much stricter. Meeting non-free assures fair use is met, but because a goal of WMF projects is to promote free content and minimize non-free, we also need to reduce the amount of non-free we include and that's why where a clear fair use allowance of a song sample (As suggested for a start article) would be a problem for NFC. NFCC#8 is the key factor here and its two-prong test. We know the sample enhances the reader's understanding of the article, but does its absence harm that? In most cases where this is being proposed, no it doesn't as there is little discussion about the audio aspects of the song itself. --Masem (t) 12:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- To most people, a large number of songs that they "know" will only be recognisable to them through the audio, not descriptions of the song or even the lyrics. Yes, the absence of a sample harms understanding: it makes many readers only faintly familiar with the song unable to link any article information to their existing knowledge. As to whether you see this as an argument about fair use or about NFCC, which implies fair use, is splitting hairs. I argue both are met when the article has non-trivial content. — Bilorv (talk) 10:43, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- But given that we can, 99% of the time, link to an official version of the song (and music video as well) as a FREER version than a clip, that still meets that "identification" aspect that is being discussed here. Also it is very important that we do not argue this as a "fair use" case as we are operating on the principle of minimizing non-free usage and this looks to add a class of non-free at massive scale (on the order of 1000s to 10000s of sound samples). --Masem (t) 13:45, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- To most people, a large number of songs that they "know" will only be recognisable to them through the audio, not descriptions of the song or even the lyrics. Yes, the absence of a sample harms understanding: it makes many readers only faintly familiar with the song unable to link any article information to their existing knowledge. As to whether you see this as an argument about fair use or about NFCC, which implies fair use, is splitting hairs. I argue both are met when the article has non-trivial content. — Bilorv (talk) 10:43, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- But again, we aren't looking at fair use as the standard, we are looking at non-free which is much stricter. Meeting non-free assures fair use is met, but because a goal of WMF projects is to promote free content and minimize non-free, we also need to reduce the amount of non-free we include and that's why where a clear fair use allowance of a song sample (As suggested for a start article) would be a problem for NFC. NFCC#8 is the key factor here and its two-prong test. We know the sample enhances the reader's understanding of the article, but does its absence harm that? In most cases where this is being proposed, no it doesn't as there is little discussion about the audio aspects of the song itself. --Masem (t) 12:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Masem: as I understand it, fair use is a legal requirement, so WP cannot ever fall below this threshold. I understand that we generally operate far above it. However, I would say that a song article with only the content "This is a song.[1][2]" and a 30 second extract does not meet fair use (even though the refs may prove notability); thus, the article has to have some relevant content. It seems that you agree that requiring Start-class or better would easily show fair use is met. — Bilorv (talk) 08:07, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- It needs to be pointed out again that WP (nor any WMF project) operate at all under the concept of fair use. Fair use informs our non-free principles and we already establish 10%/30 s in our audio sampling for non-free policies, and I can pretty much assure that dropping a sample of that length and of lower quality used on a tertiary research source like en.wiki to fail the fair use defense principle, meaning that when arguing "where fair use is met" is effectively a no-effort bar beyond having a standalone article. We have to remember that given that nearly all the time we can provide external links to an official version of a song, that a freer version of a non-free sample of a song may be that type of link itself. The commentary requirment from NFCC#8 only helps when the sample itself is of discussion within the article. --Masem (t) 19:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose, Jheald and CaptainEek very clearly outline the objections I would have to this type of indiscriminate usage, so I will say "Per them" rather than belaboring them. Seraphimblade Talk to me 14:38, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose strongly. There is a big difference between showing the cover art and offering the music for free: traditionally, the cover art was always free to see in the retail store, but the music required purchase. The cover art is basically an advertisement for the music inside. And in any case, YouTube and other online sources have just about every song digitized, which means Wikipedia does not have to duplicate that effort. Binksternet (talk) 15:28, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose To support this is to open the flood gates to non-free content. Absolutely not. No way, no how. --Hammersoft (talk) 00:17, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose, not a good idea to allow masses of non-free content; "with commentary" is permissive enough (still allows samples in all decent articles about songs). —Kusma (talk) 15:44, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support. Just as cover images (which we allow without commentary) serve to visually identify a topic, so does a song sample serve to identify a song in a way that cannot be replicated by text. Sandstein 14:26, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support' at least to a certain extent. We cannot discuss what we do not understand, or undertand what we have never heard of. The assumption is often made by those working on song articles that anyone coming there is likely to have some familiarity qith the work--that the articles are written by fans for fans. This is not correct. At lest part of the audience will be people like me who have no prior knowledge whatsoever, but have see a reference to a song, sometimes as a cultural example that all should be aware of. Everyone has such gaps in some areas--probably most of us have such gaps in most of the areas covered by the encyclopedia . Helping people fill these gaps is one of the key original functions of encyclopedias. I understand the need to keep well clear of trying to stretch the limits of fair use, but I think we are consistently over-restrictive. The way to support the principle of fair use is to employ it vigorously but sensibly and thoughtfully. . DGG ( talk ) 06:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Weak oppose Use of musical recordings for identifying musical works is probably acceptable and useful per WP:NFCC#8, but they are also much more commercially valuable than other media, so this use might fail WP:NFCC#2. Such decisionmaking is probably better left to WMF Legal due to the ambiguity. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 23:24, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose Without commentary it's just effectively decoration. And given that the reader could (in most cases) simply flip across to Spotify (other streaming services are available) and listen to the whole thing, what's the point of diluting our free content policies? Black Kite (talk) 05:44, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Unacceptable without commentary
- No longer allowing newer votes in this subsection after this timestamp: 03:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Unacceptable even with commentary
- No longer allowing newer votes in this subsection after this timestamp: 03:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose It would be completely impossible to give adequate encyclopedic treatment to a song—an entity that exists to be listened to—without being able to listen to it. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 16:44, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose per above. ili (talk) 17:54, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Sdkb and ILIL: Wait a minute. When you voted oppose, do you oppose the idea of using the samples in the song articles, or do you oppose the "unacceptable" vote? I assumed that "oppose" means "unacceptable". Compare the votes at the RFC about biographical images. If that isn't the way, how else should I have organized the RFC? "Support" and "oppose" subheadings instead? --George Ho (talk) 19:31, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- @George Ho: Opposing the "unacceptable" vote. I admit this layout is confusing. ili (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Sdkb and ILIL: I'll change the headings from "Acceptable" and "unacceptable" to "support usage" and "oppose usage" if that's what you both want. Will that do? --George Ho (talk) 20:02, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- @George Ho: Opposing the "unacceptable" vote. I admit this layout is confusing. ili (talk) 19:42, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Sdkb and ILIL: Wait a minute. When you voted oppose, do you oppose the idea of using the samples in the song articles, or do you oppose the "unacceptable" vote? I assumed that "oppose" means "unacceptable". Compare the votes at the RFC about biographical images. If that isn't the way, how else should I have organized the RFC? "Support" and "oppose" subheadings instead? --George Ho (talk) 19:31, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
Neither (samples RfC)
- No longer allowing newer votes in this subsection after this timestamp: 04:19, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Other (samples RfC)
- Formerly "Neutral, mixed, or other (samples RfC)"
- ≤10 seconds without commentary, ≤30 seconds with commentary - Having commentary boosts the "purpose of the use" factor, thus we have more leeway on the "amount and substantiality" factor. If we don't have commentary, we should only use enough sample to identify the work, and I think 10 seconds should be enough for that. In either case, I think we have a pretty solid fair use argument for the use. Banning samples entirely if we don't have commentary seems overly paranoid. Even YouTube, which is incredibly restrictive about copyrighted music use, doesn't care about song clips under 10 seconds.[1] Nosferattus (talk) 17:24, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- Even ten seconds still doesn't prevent readers from seeking a full song. Also, Wikipedia is neither YouTube nor a mere collection of music samples. Rather articles are adequate to drive readers into finding full songs, and a ten-second sample may be excessive or unnecessary.
Furthermore, shopping sites have used samples to drive customers into buying (an access to) full songs.I should've added "please no alternative proposals" if I wanted to. George Ho (talk) 17:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC)- You seem to be arguing that 10 seconds is both excessive and inadequate. I don't understand your argument there. And yes, Wikipedia isn't YouTube, which is precisely why we have even more leverage for fair use claims. So 10 seconds without commentary should be absolutely fine. I also don't understand your point about shopping sites. Could you elaborate? Nosferattus (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry for confusing you earlier. To clarify further, I just struggle to fathom why most editors up to this point favor including a commentary-less sample in a song article when readers can still listen a full song. Besides identifying a song, are samples used to compete other websites using samples, like shopping sites and fansites, or why else? BTW, I struck out the original "shopping sites" part since it wasn't clear. --George Ho (talk) 17:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- You can't clerk your own RFC now that it's started. People have the right to add alternative proposals. Although I still feel the commentary matter is superfluous, I quite like Nosferattus's idea. WaltCip-(talk) 16:18, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- You seem to be arguing that 10 seconds is both excessive and inadequate. I don't understand your argument there. And yes, Wikipedia isn't YouTube, which is precisely why we have even more leverage for fair use claims. So 10 seconds without commentary should be absolutely fine. I also don't understand your point about shopping sites. Could you elaborate? Nosferattus (talk) 15:26, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Even ten seconds still doesn't prevent readers from seeking a full song. Also, Wikipedia is neither YouTube nor a mere collection of music samples. Rather articles are adequate to drive readers into finding full songs, and a ten-second sample may be excessive or unnecessary.
Threaded discussion (samples RfC)
- To add the comparison to album covers, album covers serve as implicit branding and marketing of the album or single, how the publisher wants the consumer to visually associate the album/single. This means the artwork is already fixed. Whereas with song samples, there is no "sample" that can be considered to be part of the branding of the song without the lack of direct commentary, so there's a significant different here and why we have not allowed song samples to be used with the same "automatic" allowance as cover art. --Masem (t) 18:10, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- I believe this argument may be valid if we were uploading arbitrary scenes from films on their respective articles. It doesn't work for songs, because more often than not, the samples are illustrating the hook or chorus, i.e. the part of the song that arguably counts as truer "branding" than the cover artwork. ili (talk) 20:19, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- One could argue the chorus is a song's branding but that is absolutely original research. If the chorus or hook is significant or important as documented by sources, great, that would justify the use, but more often than I've seen, this is not part of the usual coverage for a song. Hence why this is a problematic stance and not appropriate under NFC policy. --Masem (t) 01:19, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NOR applies to article content, not talk page discussions. All WP policy if forumlated by editorial consensus, not citation to outside authorities (third parties do not tell us what our rules are, only we decide that). I.e., all WP:POLICY is original research, so you're not presenting an actual argument against ILIL's. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:28, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- V, NOR, and NPOV would apply to an image or sound file or any other media we choose to use to show readers. V is already partially met by the need to show prior publication and verifying the original source so that we know that an image is what is claims to be, for example, and our selection of images or media should be something that does not purposely disparage the article topic. So in the case of a sound clip, which is going to be 100% a choice made by WP editors, that absent the commentary on any particular segment of the song, that's a NOR of what best represents the song, and thus is a problem. --Masem (t) 12:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NOR applies to article content, not talk page discussions. All WP policy if forumlated by editorial consensus, not citation to outside authorities (third parties do not tell us what our rules are, only we decide that). I.e., all WP:POLICY is original research, so you're not presenting an actual argument against ILIL's. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:28, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- One could argue the chorus is a song's branding but that is absolutely original research. If the chorus or hook is significant or important as documented by sources, great, that would justify the use, but more often than I've seen, this is not part of the usual coverage for a song. Hence why this is a problematic stance and not appropriate under NFC policy. --Masem (t) 01:19, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- I believe this argument may be valid if we were uploading arbitrary scenes from films on their respective articles. It doesn't work for songs, because more often than not, the samples are illustrating the hook or chorus, i.e. the part of the song that arguably counts as truer "branding" than the cover artwork. ili (talk) 20:19, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Very confusing layout here, so I guess I'll just drop this in the discussion section. Yes, we should allow samples of songs in articles about songs. Regarding commentary: If we're only talking about articles about songs, what is an article about a song if there's no commentary on the song? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:09, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that the layout is generating some confusion. I'm certain that whoever ends up closing it will find their plate full. --John Cline (talk) 20:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- I believe the phrase is shorthand for something like "commentary on the sample of music, such that hearing the sample greatly aids in understanding the commentary". isaacl (talk) 20:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- And hearing a sample greatly aids in "understanding" the commentary. Hearing the whole song is the best way to understand the song. Most Wikipedia articles give the reader lots of information about how the song was made, who has sung it, who the musicians were, where it was recorded, how commercially successful it's been, etc., etc. I guess that's what encyclopaedias are required to do. But not sure you need an encyclopaedia to "understand" a song. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- Providing excerpts of a work for commentary is a fair use under copyright law. Providing the entire work is an infringement, though. (I'm not sure what your last sentence is referring to; if you're saying that there are listeners who can perform their own analysis and interpretation without assistance from others, sure.) isaacl (talk) 20:49, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- And hearing a sample greatly aids in "understanding" the commentary. Hearing the whole song is the best way to understand the song. Most Wikipedia articles give the reader lots of information about how the song was made, who has sung it, who the musicians were, where it was recorded, how commercially successful it's been, etc., etc. I guess that's what encyclopaedias are required to do. But not sure you need an encyclopaedia to "understand" a song. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- If more editors become confused with the layout of this discussion, then
I have no choice but to close the discussion and then start over from scratch. Then I have to start another pre-RfC discussion before creating another RfC. Any suggestions on how to improve and organize the next time I restart the discussion on the same matter? Shall I mention "commentary" in the restarted discussion? Also, I have to ping all participants of this discussion if I restart the discussion from scratch.--George Ho (talk) 20:40, 3 April 2022 (UTC)- I'd even be tempted to archive it... i.e. lock the door and throw away the key. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- Or yes, you could just start again. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- In my opinion, "Acceptable with commentary" and "Unacceptable even with commentary" are redundant sections because an editor who opposes "Acceptable with commentary" shouldn't also need to support "Unacceptable even with commentary". The same redundancy exists among "Acceptable without commentary" and "Unacceptable without commentary". Additionally, only one section is needed for "Neither" as the rationale will clarify its own reason. Reducing the reply sections to three will, in itself, preclude most of the confusion I encountered. Best regards an be well. --John Cline (talk) 21:18, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'd even be tempted to archive it... i.e. lock the door and throw away the key. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- Just want to clarify some things with respect to some of the things that have been posted above in #With commentary. Non-free content is not the same as fair use and it's best to avoid mixing the terms up. In addition, non-free content is only required to be used in at least one article per WP:NFCC#7, but it may be used in more than one way or in more than one article as long as it can be demonstrated that each use satisfies all ten WP:NFCCP. Since a single use of non-free content is already considered an exception to WP:COPY#Guideline for images and other media files, additional uses of the same file tend to be a bit harder to justify because they are in many cases more of an exception that that first use. WP:NFCC#3a asks us to try and minimize non-free use as much as possible and WP:NFCC#1 asks us to use alternative to non-free content whenever possible, and it's often for these reasons that additional uses of non-free content end up being assessed as non-policy compliant. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Marchjuly for pointing this out for me. I struck the majority of my comment which was given in error. I have long held the misunderstanding that you have identified. I am not sure how I came to this wrong understanding but am glad for better understanding things now. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 06:44, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- There is no free alternative for a copyrighted song. Levivich 16:30, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
- The question of sampling should not be discussed by people who are not expert in copyright. We as volunteers can make whatever claims we want, but all it would take is one copyright lawsuit to shut the project down permanently. Which of us commenting on one of the positions above is willing to defend and explain that decision in court in front copyright lawyers and a judge? Let them continue the discussion. I for would will always err on the side of caution and exclude every song sample of a copyrighted work without a detailed description from a reliable source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:04, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
all it would take is one copyright lawsuit to shut the project down permanently
I don't know where in the world you get that idea, but don't worry, that's totally not true. A copyright lawsuit is not an existential threat to this project. Levivich 15:46, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
I requested closure of this discussion at WP:CR and am awaiting it. George Ho (talk) 00:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
A followup question (on song samples)
Given the above, this effectively will allow any song article to have a song sample. Given that we currently also implicitly allow a piece of non-free cover art for song samples, that effectively allows song articles to have two non-frees from the above consensus - more than any other copyrighted work (eg films, TV shows, etc. - even video games don't get a free pass at a screenshot w/o additional commentary) I'm going to throw out the idea that perhaps then for song articles, the cover art may be something that we do not implicitly allow in favor of allowing the song sample. The reasoning being that if the consensus agrees that song samples help identify the song, then the cover art for songs (specifically singles) does not aid anywhere close to that, and we should eliminate that allowance.
I'm testing the waters on this idea. If this needs another RFC for this, then we can have that. --Masem (t) 05:54, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- Without opining one way or the other, I'd certainly buy that a sample is more important to understanding a song than the cover of the single. That's especially true for singles released in the past 10 years when people are buying a file rather than physical media. Of course, if there's coverage of the cover art, then there's a good justification for including it, but that's fairly rare for a song, I think. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 11:30, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, this is not intended to prevent any singles' cover art from being used, but it must be better justify in the prose and would no longer qualify under WP:NFCI#1 (given that the RFC above has concluded the audio file is more important to recognition of the song/single than the cover art). --Masem (t) 13:30, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- So you're suggesting that commentary-free samples should be mutually exclusive with the cover art? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:58, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- No other type of copyrighted work (film, TV, books, video games, etc.) are granted any more than one piece of non-free for identification (eg by the mere presence of sufficient notability for a standalone article). NFC's goal is to minimize the use of non-free so if going by consensus above that the sound sample is a better means to identify a song than the cover, then the cover art allowance (which currently exists) shouldn't be allowed, as otherwise we have songs having two pieces of non-free for identification, which is a problem. I'm only seeing if this makes sense, and then would likely need an RFC to progress further. --Masem (t) 17:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- But if the sample is not used for identification (e.g. by being commentated on), using both cover art and the sample at the same time would be allowed? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:33, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- Let's take the case of cover art where there is actual commentary about the cover art - this doesn't create the automatic allowance for another piece of cover art or other identifying work (per NFCI#1) to be used, because the cover art is serving both as NFCI#1 and for its actual commentary directly about the art. So this practice taken to the case for when sound files are used for songs, the sound file is being used as the single instance of NFCI#1, even if there is further discussion about the sample. --Masem (t) 18:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- But if the sample is not used for identification (e.g. by being commentated on), using both cover art and the sample at the same time would be allowed? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:33, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
- No other type of copyrighted work (film, TV, books, video games, etc.) are granted any more than one piece of non-free for identification (eg by the mere presence of sufficient notability for a standalone article). NFC's goal is to minimize the use of non-free so if going by consensus above that the sound sample is a better means to identify a song than the cover, then the cover art allowance (which currently exists) shouldn't be allowed, as otherwise we have songs having two pieces of non-free for identification, which is a problem. I'm only seeing if this makes sense, and then would likely need an RFC to progress further. --Masem (t) 17:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Copyright with North Carolina County Seals
I am trying to add county seals to county pages in North Carolina that currently don't have one. I was wondering if I could use non-free content copyright for county seal images directly take from each counties website or other affiliated sites for that county? Thanks! DiscoA340 (talk) 23:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
PD-TXGov
I've started a discussion about c:Template:PD-TXGov over at c:COM:VPC#PD-TXGov and input from editors familiar with US state copyright laws would be really appreciated. If it turns out that this license is OK for Commons, WP:PD#US government works might need to be updated. It might also mean that some non-free files uploaded locally to Wikipedia could be converted to PD and moved to Commons. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)