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Welcome to the talk page for WikiProject Linguistics. This is the hub of the Wikipedian linguist community; like the coffee machine in the office, this page is where people get together, share news, and discuss what they are doing. Feel free to ask questions, make suggestions, and keep everyone updated on your progress. New talk goes at the bottom, and remember to sign and date your comments by typing four tildes (~~~~
). Thanks!
Request for comment
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Request for comment on removal of prefix "Islamic" from "Islamic death penalty" | |
Contested and attempted removal of the prefix "Islamic" from "Islamic death penalty", which is construct used as a pipe for the wikilink Capital punishment in Islam and as phrase remains unreferenced. Please participate in the discussion at Talk:Page Thanks.--౪ Santa ౪99° 22:04, 17 February 2022 (UTC) |
Borrowed words in English
I am looking for opinions on how best to view foreign language words used in English. At what point does a foreign word become an English word of foreign origin? The relevance of this distinction relates to how that word should be treated when used in English - should the word follow English norms of usage, spelling, grammar, pronunciation etc, or should it follow the norms of the lending language. For example, is troika an English word or Russian? Or the phrase 'à la carte', English or French, and should it be spelt with or without the accent? Some might say that if a word is used in English and especially is in an English dictionary, it has become an English word that has begun undergoing assimilation, and that assimilation will vary and be changing depending on many factors. The words troika and eureka would presumably have been written in the Roman script from the start, beginning the assimilation process immediately. This question has come from an extensive debate around the use of Maori words in English. There has been a trend in the last few years to use Maori words more regularly in written and spoken English, such as tīpuna. Some of these words would rarely have been used before, if at all. This therefore goes beyond usage of the well assimilated Maori words that have been used for decades in English, particularly in NZ English, words such as pakeha and kumera. This change is part of the Maori renaissance begun roughly fifty years ago and specifically after legislative and policy changes in the last decade or so. Should the word pakeha, for example, that has been used in NZ English for a couple of hundred years, have its spelling 'corrected' to pākehā. Is it an assimilated English word that does not need to be altered or is it a Maori word that must follow Maori language rules even when used in English, such as its spelling? This NZ example is complicated because nearly all the sources available are subject to legislative changes and official policy directives that require the new Maori spellings to be used and, on national TV and radio, the 'correct' pronunciation. This compromises the independence and hence the reliability of otherwise reliable secondary sources. The implications of using the 'correct' form of a word that has been borrowed has wider implications than just Maori words. For example, is anyone pronouncing the '-t' at the end of 'trait' open to correction? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Maledictology and Scatolinguistics
Is there a reason to have both Maledictology and Scatolinguistics? They seem to cover the same material...although the articles as written suggest the former is under the purview of psychology? I'm also not sure how notable either of these are qua subdisciplines of linguistics..., like there's certainly research about profanity, but are there enough sources about this as its own field to warrant a Wikipedia article? Umimmak (talk) 07:49, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
- Also Maledicta, Reinhold Aman... AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Standardise voiced/voiceless over fortis/lenis
Fortis and lenis are both terms that have inconsistent definitions and are rarely used in comparison to voiced/voiceless in every context, it seems, other than Wikipedia pages for phonology; this is needlessly confusing and voiced/voiceless should be enforced over them. There are two different reasons one may argue against this proposition. Firstly, one might say that fortis and lenis mean voiced and voiceless themselves. In this case, fortis and lenis, as the rarer terms, should not be used for the sake of recognition. Otherwise, one may propose an alternative definition for fortis and lenis; it is the strength of a consonant, or the length, possibly something even more exotic. These simultaneous arguments, when viewed together, show why this fails; there is no consistent definition of fortis and lenis! In fact, there exist consonant inventory tables which use fortis and lenis in place of voiced and voiceless, despite the fact that plenty of pages for phonology, including Portuguese phonology and Spanish phonology, are entirely comprehensible without mentioning either word once, even in their many sources. In conclusion, fortis and lenis are dated and ambiguous terms that should be replaced with voiced and voiceless. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.185.122.45 (talk) 22:36, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
- Fortis and lenis are not synonymous with voiceless and voiced. It is true that they don't have agreed-upon phonetic correlates, but it is also true that there are phonological units, like English /b, d, ɡ/, that contrast with their voiceless counterparts but are themselves also often voiceless. Calling them voiced phonemes would be misleading if not inaccurate. This is why the terms are used in the first place and they remain useful as phonological concepts. We use whatever terms reliable sources use, and not doing so is original research. Nardog (talk) 05:27, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
Regular sound correspondences between Hungarian and other Uralic languages
The page Regular sound correspondences between Hungarian and other Uralic languages strikes me as a problem. Leaving aside the weirdly long name, the page is unreferenced and the topic seems unencyclopedic. We generally don't have articles on cognate sets, and nothing about these cognates strikes me as being the subject of major coverage. I considered taking it to AfD, but I'm interested in whether other editors think there's value in keeping this around and how we might be able to improve it. — Wug·a·po·des 03:35, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- We have a handful of articles of the type "Phonological history of...", so it might be worth considering to remodel the article along these lines (with sources, of course), as a subpage of History of the Hungarian language. –Austronesier (talk) 14:06, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
User script to detect unreliable sources
I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like
- John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (
John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.
)
and turns it into something like
- John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.
The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.
Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.
This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
Category:Neologisms
I'm concerned about the number of multi-word phrases that have been placed in this Category -- particularly in subcategories such as Category:1950s neologisms. Many of them are catchphrases from popular culture, advertsing slogans, quotes from movies, passages from literature, etc.
Examples: Charlie Brown, you blockhead; Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids; The name's Bond... James Bond; Have you no sense of decency; Nadir of American race relations; Do not go gentle into that good night; What's good for General Motors is good for the country.
Those were just a small sample. I just don't see how these phrases can *properly* be considered neologisms -- they are merely phrases (consisting of commonly-used words) that happen to have become popular during a certain period of time.
Frankly, it is incomrehensible that so many of these phrases have been added into Categories intended for neologisms. I am happy to do my share of the work removing these improperly categorized articles, but I can't take on the whole job myself. Can I count on folks here to help out in a big way? Regards, Anomalous+0 (talk) 06:29, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Anomalous+0: FWIW, the incorrect categorization is the outcome of this unfortunate CfD: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_October_4#Neologisms,_words_and_phases_introduced_in_time_periods. The original categories for phrases were good and precise. –Austronesier (talk) 07:35, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- What a shame. Clearly not a neologism. It's been over a year, maybe it's time to overturn that Cfd.Mathglot (talk) 10:25, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Question regarding usage of language comparison texts/sample texts on Wikipedia
Around two weeks ago, I asked a question at the Teahouse regarding whether there is any "official Wikipedia policy" regarding the selection of comparison texts or sample texts for different languages (e.g. Lord's Prayer, Article 1 of the UDHR, The North Wind and the Sun etc.). I was redirected to WikiProject Languages where I asked the same question again on the talk page. Since it's been, well, a bit over two weeks and I haven't got any response, I thought I'd ask here.
The question is this: on the Wikipedia articles on different languages, there are often example texts or language comparison texts that are used to give a brief idea of the character of the language and to compare it with English. However, as far as I can tell, the selection of these texts is not consistent: for example, Latin uses a sample of De Bello Gallico, Esperanto uses a sample text about dragons in China and Article 1 of the UDHR, French language also uses Article 1 of the UDHR, and so on. Is there any specific Wikipedia policy regarding what text to use as a sample text/comparison text, or is it down to editor judgement? If there is an official Wikipedia policy regarding this, could you please provide a link to the corresponding page?
Thanks — MeasureWell (talk) 09:57, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- @MeasureWell:, to my knowledge, there is no such policy at Wikipedia. It's pretty much up to the editors contributing the text, although if anything turns out to be contentious, in the end, it would be up to consensus, just like pretty much everything else here. Does that answer your question? Mathglot (talk) 10:18, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Yes, thank you, this hits the nail right on the head. Also, thanks for the (for Wikipedia, extremely) quick response :) — MeasureWell (talk) 10:28, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Joshua Katz, linguist
I recently created a draft for Joshua Katz (classicist). Does he appear to meet notability for his academic work? Thank you, Thriley (talk) 16:55, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- The page Wikipedia:Notability (academics) describes generally accepted standards for academics. As the draft stands, it is not obvious to me that Professor Katz meets the standards.
- I don't see significant coverage in independent sources
- The article doesn't mention a national honor, named chair, or election to a highly selective society.
- The article doesn't indicate that Professor Katz has been editor of a notable journal or has served in the highest level position of a university or academic society.
- Happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 09:50, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- I see in this morning's newspaper that Joshua Katz is gaining some media coverage for issues not directly related to his scholarship. That is separate from WP:Notability (academics), but see also WP:NOTNEWS. Cnilep (talk) 01:36, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Upvote for access to John Benjamins in the WP Library
Hi all, please upvote for my suggestion to access the John Benjamins e-Platform in the Wikipedia Library: the link is here, search for "John Benjamins" and click the "Upvote"-button. The site hosts Diachronica, Journal of Historical Linguistics, Linguistics of the Tibeto-Burman Area and loads of other journals relevant for this project. –Austronesier (talk) 20:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
- I've wondered if anyone at the TWL team looks at that page, let alone gives it any serious consideration... It looks barely moderated, with lots of duplicates and copyvio site suggestions. Access to Benjamins would indeed be nice though. Nardog (talk) 17:15, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hope never dies. But yes, the page is a mess and eventually its posts might turn out to be as effective as letters to Santa. –Austronesier (talk) 08:33, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
When the going gets tough, the tough get going
Your comments at either discussion at Talk:When the going gets tough, the tough get going would be appreciated. I'd be inclined to delete the article per WP:NOTDICT. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 00:01, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
Miroglyph
Would some of the members of this WikiProject mind taking a look at Miroglyph? It's newly created, but didn't get reviewed by AfC. I've done some minor MOS cleanup, but it's still contain way to many Wikilinks to pages that don't really need to be linked. There's also a question about whether it meets WP:NOTNEO, but that would be better assessed perhaps by users more familiar with articles about neologisms. The article appears to have been created a part of a university course (Wikipedia:GLAM/UNIPD/Digital_History). The course appears to be for an Italian University and some of the content in the article might be translated from other Wikipedia articles, but I'm not sure. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:31, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Yeísmo IPA
An editor that's been edit warring with me on Spanish language over the inclusion of a third IPA transcription with ⟨ʝ⟩ (so [kasteˈʝano] alongside [kasteˈʎano]) is continuously refusing to engage with me on Help talk:IPA/Spanish#Yeísmo. Instead, he's writing blatantly false edit summaries such as Undid revision 1095685100 by Sol505000 (talk) rv per Help:IPA/Spanish: For terms that are more relevant to regions that have undergone yeísmo (where words such as haya and halla are pronounced the same), words spelled with ⟨ll⟩ can be transcribed with [ʝ]. In this instance, the two most common standard forms are helpful. See also article text: In most dialects it (/ʎ/) has been merged with /ʝ/ in the merger called yeísmo
when it is clear that Castellano is not one of "terms that are more relevant to regions that have undergone yeísmo". Not only that, the guide explicitly says that ⟨ʝ⟩ is to be used INSTEAD of ⟨ʎ⟩ in such cases. Do we really need to retranscribe hundreds if not thousands of words to make the variant with [ʝ] explicit? Your input would be appreciated. Sol505000 (talk) 11:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)