Talk:2021 Cuban protests
I am sorry about this. As I stated, I opened it because I thought it would be helpful in choosing the actual wording, since I believe both RfCs have the flaw of not incentivizing anything other than 'yes' or 'no' but you are right. I hope they can be helpful when the RfCs close to discuss the wording to use. Davide King (talk) 22:23, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
- No need to apologize to me! The nature of RFCs is that they only happen when there's a dispute that editors can't resolve through the normal talk page process, so they ask the community to help them decide. Once the question has been asked, it's best to pause and listen to the community's answer. If you introduce new compromise ideas part way through, then editors who've already !voted in the RfC probably won't come back to consider the new idea, so the closer is left with a discussion that's been radically altered part way through. That's quite difficult to close, particularly in this case where there are two separate RFCs running at the same time.RFCs use up a lot of volunteer time, and volunteer time is Wikipedia's only limiting resource, so RFC is an "expensive" process, if you follow the metaphor. Keeping them shorter and simpler definitely helps to keep the cost down.—S Marshall T/C 22:51, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
MR close
You're correct that WP:INVOLVED is policy, but you fail to note that the people !voting for overturn because the closer was "involved" were not referencing WP:INVOLVED, but instead referencing WP:RMCI - which is not a policy. When countered that the WP:INVOLVED policy does not actually prohibit someone from closing a similar discussion simply because they had expressed an opinion previously, no rebuttal was forthcoming from anyone. Not to mention that the policy only prohibits closing a discussion one has !voted in - not closing a different discussion because one !voted in a prior one. I also don't think "overturn to no consensus to move" is a valid outcome - at most, the argument that the closer was involved should've resulted in the RM being reopened and allowed to be closed by someone else - not a complete overturn and virtual "re-close" of the discussion based on the RM. Finally, while you were correct that policy should be "normally follow[ed]", there were quite a few invocations of IAR - and those invoking NOTBURO were clearly saying they believed IAR should be invoked, even if they didn't explicitly state so.
I think at a minimum it would be beneficial if you expanded your close of the move review to discuss why you felt that the argument for "involvement" was stronger when the people arguing for involved were referencing a non-policy and could not explain why their opinions are based on the actual policy. Further, if you are unwilling to revisit the close at all, or if you remain overturning the close, you should reopen the MR to be closed by someone else as opposed to forcing a brand new discussion - if the only thing causing it to be overturned is "closer involved", the close should be vacated but the decision itself is not necessarily reversed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:54, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, welcome to my talk page! I don't agree with your view of what the overturn side were saying and I don't know quite how you reached it .That close was quite long enough and quite clear enough, and I don't intend to revise it. I don't think reopening the MR is a very good idea. My understanding is that when a move review results in an overturn, the outcome is reversed, and that's what I did (or tried to; others helped me when I screwed it up).Contested move review closes may be reviewed on WP:AN if you'd like to appeal. Hope this helps and all the best—S Marshall T/C
- It's not always an "overturn to the other option". For "overturn to not moved", there must be a consensus in the MR that the actual close was incorrect - not simply that there was a procedural issue. A procedural issue (ex: invalid closer due to involvement, !voting in the discussion, etc) results in a reopening of the discussion. Not to mention that I'm not sure what's unclear with my view and how I reached it - I pointed out that you ignored a glaringly blatant error in that you accepted a non-policy based rationale as a "policy" - when the people !voting did not cite WP:INVOLVED but instead cited WP:RMCI - which is not a policy and which is not in line with the actual policy. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 01:08, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Nope. I took WP:INVOLVED as policy and applied it rigourously. I read the intentions and thoughts people expressed, not the precise piece of alphabet soup they linked to. If you think I'm mistaken then you're welcome to raise a review on the administrator's noticeboard, but I do not intend to change my close on the basis of this argument, which I view as a quibble.—S Marshall T/C 01:18, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- But all that you're saying is that the closer was not in the position to close it. You're not saying that the closer was wrong in their reading of the consensus. Someone uninvolved could have come to the same conclusion. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:54, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- I know, and I'm sorry if you're disappointed about that. I note that ProcrastinatingReader has reclosed it; does that satisfy you?—S Marshall T/C 07:26, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Nope. I took WP:INVOLVED as policy and applied it rigourously. I read the intentions and thoughts people expressed, not the precise piece of alphabet soup they linked to. If you think I'm mistaken then you're welcome to raise a review on the administrator's noticeboard, but I do not intend to change my close on the basis of this argument, which I view as a quibble.—S Marshall T/C 01:18, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's not always an "overturn to the other option". For "overturn to not moved", there must be a consensus in the MR that the actual close was incorrect - not simply that there was a procedural issue. A procedural issue (ex: invalid closer due to involvement, !voting in the discussion, etc) results in a reopening of the discussion. Not to mention that I'm not sure what's unclear with my view and how I reached it - I pointed out that you ignored a glaringly blatant error in that you accepted a non-policy based rationale as a "policy" - when the people !voting did not cite WP:INVOLVED but instead cited WP:RMCI - which is not a policy and which is not in line with the actual policy. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 01:08, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Angola, Delaware
I disagree re: SK#1. Can you quote to me from the nomination statement anywhere the nominator actually says "this should be deleted". I'm in fact seeing anything but that. Jclemens (talk) 14:40, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- Do you feel that an AfD nom must explicitly say "this should be deleted", on pain of having their nomination summarily closed? In that AfD, I understand Mangoe's nomination to mean: "I doubt that this is a village and I suspect it might in fact be a gated community". Unstated, but I think trivially implied from the fact that Mangoe started an AfD rather than a talk page discussion, is the further clause "... and if it's a gated community then it doesn't satisfy the notability criteria set out in WP:NGEO so it should be deleted". The users participating in the AfD certainly seem to have understood Mangoe's nomination in that light.—S Marshall T/C 15:01, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- First off, I don't see how expecting the phrase "this ought to be deleted" or its equivalent is anything but legalistic and bureaucratic. I assume, as I think anyone would, that an AfD implicitly includes the suggestion that the article should be considered for deletion.
- In the case of this particular article, my experience is that talk page discussions are only worthwhile in cases where it can be assumed that a fair number of people are watching the article, which doesn't seem to be the case for these placename articles. There's a good number of people watch for geography AfDs, and I didn't see the point in having a likely inconclusive talk page discussion and then have to do it again for real at AfD. The way things have gone, people did manage to find a lot of good material, and I'm ready to say, "OK, keep it." If someone would like to do the honors and give it a proper close then, be my guest. Mangoe (talk) 18:51, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think it needs to rise to that level, but I fail to see anything about the nomination statement at all that unequivocally suggests that deletion is an appropriate outcome. By all means--please show me what I'm missing. What I see is, to paraphrase, a belief that this may not be a real unified area, or otherwise may not be accurately represented by one article. That's an excellent place to start a talk page discussion, but I'm seeing a good faith request for clarity, not an assertion that it should be deleted. Jclemens (talk) 01:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think the function of SK ground 1 is to allow nominators to withdraw their XFDs. A speedy close of a nomination that hasn't been withdrawn seems very bitey to me -- it suggests that the nomination is totally inappropriate and not worth considering.—S Marshall T/C 08:40, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
redirects
thanks, that was nice of you : )
I will admit that when I initially read the close and it seemed to suggest that I didn't understand categories I kinda chuckled : )
and I prolly should have responded to his last question to me, to help clarify what he appeared to be misunderstanding about adminitrative cats, but I didn't see his q. But whatever, If this ends up being an issue, we can always address it then.
Anyway, thanks again. I always appreciate someone giving me my smile of the day here : ) - jc37 17:01, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
- You're very welcome. Sincere apologies for misphrasing the first version of my close!—S Marshall T/C 17:19, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
ongoing
- Template_talk:Fiction-based_redirects_to_list_entries_category_handler#Request_for_comments_about_hiding_redirect_categories
- [2]
Just a heads up - jc37 21:34, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
Closing the RM about "2021 United States Capitol attack"
Hi, I'm not asking you to revert your decision and I'm not going to start a move review, but I think you should have let the discussion run for a bit longer than the bare minimum of seven days (you closed it seven days and three hours after it was started). Berchanhimez suggested "...perhaps should be allowed to run until further comments have trickled down to a minimal amount", and MelanieN added "let's wait until discussion dies down". The discussion was still quite active; the last comment was added an hour before you closed it. I didn't have much time last week, but I would have liked to add some detailed points about our five WP:CRITERIA and how to apply them to the proposed titles in this case.
Anyway: I can live with your decision, but I'd just like to suggest: Next time you close a RM for such a contentious title, consider giving it more time than absolutely required, especially if some editors requested that. Thanks! — Chrisahn (talk) 14:30, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hi, and welcome to my talk page! Thanks for posting here.The reasons why I disagree with Berchanhimez, MelanieN, and yourself on that point are:- firstly, because this discussion came directly after a move review which lasted from 1st June to 1st August, in which editors extensively discussed the process and the alternatives; secondly, because in my view the community had offered so much input that the consensus was absolutely crystal clear; and thirdly, this being the fourteenth (14th) move request for this content, the community was expressing some very understandable impatience with the constant bikeshedding about retitling. I do feel it's important that we follow the process scrupulously, but having done so, it's right to make a decision and move on.—S Marshall T/C 15:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining your motives; that is helpful. And thanks for introducing me to a new word, "bikeshedding". -- MelanieN (talk) 16:14, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- First admin to see the close basically has an official duty to effectuate the technical side of things. One thousand dissenting voices could flock onto the talk page post-close discussion and say "don't move because XYZ" and the page would still 100% have to be moved. It's RM close (followed by the required technical action by whomever, automatically, doesn't matter who) -> MR or lack thereof. Not RM close (of a formal process) -> informal discussion -> ???. Formal process has a formal outcome. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:38, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
- Given that you closed the move review, I don't think you're anywhere near as uninvolved as many of us would've liked. Yes, that's an administrative role action so not technically involved. But you closed the move review ignoring those of us who were saying that the RMCI is not in line with the actual involved policy - and then proceeded to ignore those of us who requested someone completely uninvolved close this. While I greatly appreciate your being willing to continue to assist with determining consensus from an outside view, I do not believe your close is in line with my views, and I think that your closure at this time is likely more detrimental to the page as a whole than had you simply left it for someone else to close. Furthermore, the consensus here may have been more clear than the consensus in the other move discussion, but your participation in the area means that there is yet another potential avenue to argue that this was improper. I made my request knowing that it was well above and beyond what is normally expected, and to be quite frank, I feel like you simply ignored me and another admin MelanieN in closing this right now. Quite frankly, I'm dumbfounded that you felt it needed closing sooner rather than later, when the past move request lingered for weeks and the move review for over a month. If "it's right to make a decision and move on", then you should've closed the move review as "endorse, even given the "involvement" of the closer". Your participation in the past move request, move review, and this move request has only opened more doors for people to claim impropriety and be unhappy with the results, and overall I am less than impressed with your comments on this matter. I greatly respect your work virtually everywhere else - but you really should consider undoing your close and allowing it to go further as multiple people have opined that would be beneficial regardless of the crystal clear consensus (which, I'll note, was also present in the last move request which you overturned at move review). I'm not sure "hypocritical" is the right word - but there's definitely a disconnect between your closure of the move review and your decision to ignore people calling for this to go longer, as well as ignoring my request for a more thought out statement than just "there's a consensus". I urge you to please undo your close and allow it to be closed by someone completely uninvolved 100% never edited this page or any move request on it before administrator. Hundreds of admins exist who fit that criteria, and there's no rush. Also, on a lighter note, just because your edit notice says swearing is allowed, fuck drama - I don't intend for this to cause drama, and I certainly won't comment further past this (unless you ask questions of me or something like that), but I worry that your "on time" close is going to result in more eventual drama than had you left it and allowed another person to close it later on. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 01:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Buddy, I was and am fully uninvolved, that close was fully in accordance with the procedure, and was supported by a strong consensus. I anticipate that you or User:Awesome Aasim will raise a move review and I would welcome that. At the MR I expect the community to tell you my position is akin to Gibraltar.—S Marshall T/C 09:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- While there might technically be "hundreds of admins", I don't think there is a line of volunteers wanting to dive into a conflict like this. It reminds me of Gamergate days when we were lucky to have one or two admins willing to referee the drama and they quickly burned out over the constant feuding. I only wish the pause on move discussions had been made longer but I understand S Marshall's decision. Liz Read! Talk! 02:33, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
Hertfordshire Mercury
Hi, I came across you via the Hertfordshire wikiproject which seems dormant at the moment. I've recently started editing again after a bit of a break and am in the middle of trying to improve the McMullen's Brewery article. I'm struggling a bit for decent sources and I was wondering if you knew how to get hold of old articles from the Hertfordshire Mercury? It was Hertford's main paper for most of the 20th century and should have lots of articles. If not do you know where the best place to ask would be? Thanks RicDod (talk) 19:24, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hiya, if you're local to Hertford the best way is to pop to the HALS offices next to County Hall. The Herts Mercury back issues probably haven't been digitised. All the best—S Marshall T/C 19:37, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
Shaurya Doval
Nice to meet you. In case your pings still aren't working, I pinged you at Draft talk:Shaurya Doval. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
- Hi!—S Marshall T/C 16:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Regarding your post
Would appreciate if you amend your post on the admin board to list also WP:SUBTOPICCAT and WP:LISTRCAT as currently it seems as if it's a no consensus vs guideline situation, when in fact it's a guideline vs guideline issue. Additionally, as I've pointed out, no one has shown why the categories are admin or cleanup which then brings into question whether the other guideline is even relevant. Currently your post makes it seem very one-sided. Thank you. Gonnym (talk) 14:38, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
Should this article be deleted?
I noticed your comments in Deletion_review#Active_discussions. I don't have enough experience in biography articles to know if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Beat should be deleted, or not. Could you do a quick look at it? Thanks. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 19:14, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, Sbmeirow. I think your instincts there were right. I've moved it to draft space for incubation.—S Marshall T/C 19:34, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
recent edits on Gateway section of Electronic Cigarettes
I'm liking your edits; cleaner and simpler.
I would like to restore just one "A 2021 systematic review and meta-analysis of 25 studies and three reviews found that every study examined found that e-cigarette use was associated with higher odds of later smoking." Why? It informs on the strength of the evidence. But tighten it up. E.g. "A review of 25 studies found every study measured a gateway effect". What do you say? Cloudjpk (talk) 19:46, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
- I say thanks for the kind compliment!I think that we're writing for two audiences. Firstly for those readers who know what a systematic review is and understand the scientific weight that a meta-analysis provides, many of whom have a college or university education, and secondly for a general audience. Half of our readers are of below average attainment in science.I think that the first kind of reader will tend to check our sources every time we make a claim they find surprising, and the footnotes do make clear how strong the evidence is. So I think the prose content of a non-technical article such as this one should generally be aimed at the second kind of reader. Could we perhaps say something like "There is good evidence for a gateway effect"?—S Marshall T/C 21:20, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Trump close
Thanks for closing the Donald Trump page thread on North Korea. I think it would be helpful if you would quote the approved wording in your close, so that when future users consult the archive they will not need to go back to the article to verify the consensus text. SPECIFICO talk 13:58, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- I agree but am currently away from my computer, trying to edit from a tablet, and also, about to go out, so I need your help to do it. I am content for you to append this clarification to my close.—S Marshall T/C 14:23, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Open ended closing
I've fixed the ending of the RFC closure, for you :) GoodDay (talk) 14:48, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar | |
For your valued work in the July 2021 GAN Backlog Drive, which, in a single month, helped to reduce the backlog by nearly 50%. --Usernameunique (talk) 05:07, 19 September 2021 (UTC) |
One editor very interested in Cold War II
Hey there. Thanks for the close. As I must say, I started the RFC mostly because one editor kept passionately pushing for whatever the one oneself wants and I wasn't brave enough to angrily convince the editor to give up the idea. What can I do if that editor tries to reinsert what is already rejected? --George Ho (talk) 16:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC); typo, 17:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
- At first, assume they're in good faith and point them to the pre-existing consensus; and if they persist despite consensus, ask one of our excellent and admirable sysops to give them support and direction! All the best—S Marshall T/C 16:43, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
AN on RFC close
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Challenge_of_RSN_closure_of_RFC_on_Daily_Wire nableezy - 15:45, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Did not get you
Hi there, English is not my native language please excuse my ignorance. "On the rest of what you wrote, I dispute and join issue with you in every respect." what do you mean. Perhaps you can repharse it here for me.
Are you disagreeing with me on everything else.
or
you agree with me on some and disagree on others? Venkat TL (talk) 14:39, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
- It's a polite way of saying that I don't agree with anything you said.—S Marshall T/C 17:05, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
If you have a minute...
...would you take a look at my closure at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)#RFC: Regnal names? It struck me as a fairly clear outcome, but since this is (I think) my first projectspace RfC closure, I figured it was worth getting a second opinion. I've always appreciated your thoughtful closures, so I'd appreciate any feedback you might have. Best regards, Extraordinary Writ (talk) 08:21, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
- Splendid job. By explaining the close so thoroughly you help editors to see how and why the decision is made. Your close is accurate and in accordance with all the applicable guidelines.—S Marshall T/C 10:17, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Help please - if you have a minute...
Hello Mr Marshall it's been a while. I'd welcome you thoughts and intervention if possible. A new user has been creating a company page. An editor arbitrarily decided to delete it. No consensus. No discussion. No reference to any other similar pages. No comprehension or acknowledgement of the value of this to the field of study. I posted a polite caution on their talk page. They've proceeded to gather a cabal to harass me. It things like this that drive many editors away and create a very toxic environment. Can you assist please? Amicaveritas (talk) 17:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Amicaveritas, could you provide the links and diffs so I can see what happened?—S Marshall T/C 18:29, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Mr Marshall, thank you for getting back to me. This was the page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:SciChart it's been deleted so I don't know if you can see diffs. Amicaveritas (talk) 11:52, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
To save you time:
- The article was deleted because it met the speedy deletion criteria (nominated by Giraffer)
- Here's the "polite caution".
- See User talk:Amicaveritas for further info. Deb (talk) 12:48, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- Oh, that's unfortunate. Mildness and kindness is usually the successful approach on Wikipedia (and it's almost always the right approach too). My view is that contested G13s don't often survive DRV -- they very often get overturned and referred to MFD. It might be quickest and simplest to restore and MFD the draft now and allow the community to have its say, even if it seems like a foregone conclusion. Deb, would you be willing to consider this?—S Marshall T/C 12:59, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- I can't see a reason to do that. The article creator was almost certainly the owner of the company. It was a G11, not a G13, and Amicaveritas himself/herself had previously made this edit, with the summary "Edited to remove potential puffery". Deb (talk) 13:03, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- Since you can't see that, it amounts to changing "SciChart is a High Performance software library for charting." to "SciChart is a software library for high performance charting."; removing "Novel" from "First released in 2012, SciChart produced WPF Charts using a novel Bitmap rendering technique to achieve high performance, real-time graphing on the Windows Presentation Foundation platform."; and "highly popular" from "In a highly popular interview with Mixergy's Andrew Warner, Andrew Burnett-Thompson described how early versions of the SciChart chart software were written on the train commute to London, outside of a 9-5 job, while overcoming adversity such as family sickness in his personal life.<ref>[a podcast]</ref>" just after two refs to the founder's linkedin page. —Cryptic 13:15, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- I can't see a reason to do that. The article creator was almost certainly the owner of the company. It was a G11, not a G13, and Amicaveritas himself/herself had previously made this edit, with the summary "Edited to remove potential puffery". Deb (talk) 13:03, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
- Well, Amicaveritas, with Deb's refusal your options are: (1) Go to deletion review and ask the community to review Deb's decision; (2) Read WP:G11 carefully, note that you are allowed to generate a new draft with that title but there will be an exact repeat of this incident if it's promotional, and therefore carefully ensure that it's scrupulously neutral; or (3) Decide you can't be bothered and move on. In my view this source and this source show that it's reasonable for Wikipedia to host a draft about this company, but I would not recommend that you try to move it to mainspace without at least one further independent, reliable source and I haven't been able to find a further source that would suffice.—S Marshall T/C 00:57, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
- Noted. Thanks you for your help, it's much appreciated. Amicaveritas (talk) 14:48, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
Disapproving tone
I don't think that editors will agree, in principle, to using an intentionally disapproving tone for anything, even for suicide.
Separately, the concern I suggest is this: Even if you believe the phrase is normal and adequately neutral – even if you could somehow prove beyond any reasonable doubt that within your subculture, it objectively is a neutral phrase – the phrase still might make some people sad or angry, including people who are grieving. IMO the surviving friends and family members deserve compassion and gentleness, especially if it costs us so little as sometimes writing something like "The cause of death was suicide" or "He killed himself" instead of "He committed suicide".
That said, if the only thing "wrong" with an article is that it uses the word committed instead of an encyclopedic alternative, then I think we shouldn't worry too much, especially if nobody is complaining about it. I'm much more concerned about problems like this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:20, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- I want to distinguish between trauma-informed practice when speaking to someone whose partner, child or parent has taken their own life---where you would totally avoid judgemental language---and writing an encyclopaedia for a general audience where using language that normalizes suicide could actually spark suicidal thoughts or create conditions for a suicide attempt.
- On reflection I wonder whether the wording you've suggested belongs in WP:BIOGRAPHY, where trauma-informed practice matters more. To have it in MEDMOS is to use suicide-normalizing language in articles about medical conditions where a significant proportion of readers are sufferers. Do you not see an ethical concern there?—S Marshall T/C 09:25, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- I was intrigued by the comments about disapproving vs normalising. I did a search, and most results were about normalising talking about mental health issues, though I found one paper noting that normalising suicide has historically been and continues to be a problem in Japan. I found Self-harm and suicide in adults Final report of the Patient Safety Group by the Royal College of Psychiatrists and Preventing suicide: a resource for media professionals by the World Health Organization. The latter has a few paragraphs on "Do not use language which sensationalizes or normalizes suicide, or presents it as a constructive solution to problems". Both could be useful for guidance, though they are written by experts, so, you know, take their advice a pinch of salt ;-). Both comment negatively on "commit". I think there are other phrases than the neutral ones WAID gives that could be problematic for normalising or romanticising suicide.
- I agree the location of the advice isn't obviously correct at MEDMOS. But there is perhaps an advantage that that style guide is watchlisted by editors who appreciate experts cited in reliable sources, rather than the playground for culture wars that seems to occur elsewhere at MOS. -- Colin°Talk 11:59, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you, Colin: I think those are helpful links. Personally, I wouldn't characterize suicide-normalizing language as a manual of style issue. I feel that the MOS should be confined to article format and layout, accessibility standards, and spelling and grammar choices, so I can continue my longstanding practice of ignoring it completely and leaving it up to those with nothing else to do. Maybe we need to work up a new guideline somewhere that we can crosslink from WP:BLP and WP:MEDMOS?
- There's a spectrum here with a lot of nuance. On the extreme ends, we don't want to be insensitive to survivors, and we wouldn't accept suicide-advocacy (which is against our shiny new UCOC, I'm pleased to observe). But somewhere between those two poles is suicide-tolerant and suicide-normalizing language in articles about serious medical conditions and I'd like to avoid that too.
- I've worked intermittently with self-harmers in the criminal justice system, but I don't have any formal qualifications or real expertise here. Do we know anyone who does?—S Marshall T/C 12:50, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think one of the problems with MOS is that it is all about telling editors what they should and shouldn't do, and it is the work of original research by and the opinion of editors. The Independent Press Standards Organisation: Guidance on reporting suicide has the following:
Language
IPSO does not seek to limit the language that journalists can use to describe suicide.
However, journalists should be aware that the Suicide Act 1961 decriminalised the act of suicide. Many organisations working in the area of suicide prevention are concerned about the use of the phrase ‘commit suicide’ and argue that the phrasing stigmatises suicide and is insensitive to those affected by suicide. They prefer to refer to a person’s decision to take their own life, or that they died by suicide.
- Here they are informing journalists of the advice of experts and leaving it for the journalists to take or leave that advice. They aren't going to get some Daily Mail ranter and some Guardian warrior to agree, so don't try. By trying to insert rules into MOS, we create a platform for culture was and ego battles and entirely uninformed people to be asked for their opinions, which they freely give without getting informed. Given that Wikipedia is all about providing information, information that is sourced externally and reliably, shouldn't we do the same about these matters for editors? "Here, this is what experts think..." -- Colin°Talk 15:13, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think one of the problems with MOS is that it is all about telling editors what they should and shouldn't do, and it is the work of original research by and the opinion of editors. The Independent Press Standards Organisation: Guidance on reporting suicide has the following:
- Do you think that "He killed himself" is an example of "suicide-normalizing language"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:52, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- No, not by itself. An example of suicide-normalizing language might be: "Condition X is painful and difficult to treat, and sufferers are much more likely than the general population to kill themselves."—S Marshall T/C 22:21, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
- That sounds like a reasonable description of what was once called "the suicide disease" by doctors. I'm not sure whether that description normalizes suicide or merely reports the facts as they were experienced before the advent of modern medicine. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:27, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well it does both. It reports the facts in a way that suggests suicide is a normal response.—S Marshall T/C 01:36, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Because "common" is "normal"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:40, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well it does both. It reports the facts in a way that suggests suicide is a normal response.—S Marshall T/C 01:36, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think the language nuances are improved by avoiding statements of truth and implied prediction and normalcy by using the preferred encyclopedic style of past tense information citations. eg. "Longitudinal patient surveys in the 1970s indicated that Condition X is painful and difficult to treat, and that sufferers
weremuch morelikelyoften than the general population killed themselves.[Ref1,2]" - And I would guess that the referenced source was more likely to use "die by suicide" than "kill themselves". The point being, that writing in past tense tends to focus the writer and reader on the sourced information, and away from generalisations of current thought. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:59, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'm saying that the neutral "killed themselves" language in an encyclopaedia could plant a seed of suicide in someone's mind. I think that risk could justify the more disapproving tone of "commit suicide", or similar wording, in some articles to give that seed less fertile ground to grow in. I know that for some people self-euthanasia is a rational choice but ... Well, I'm sure you don't need me to labour the point.—S Marshall T/C`
- I believe that the idea that talking about suicide could "plant a seed" is generally discredited in the literature. There is evidence that identifying with a person is a factor in some copycat suicide attempts, but disapproving of the person or the actions doesn't seem to reduce the risk. A person who is obsessed with school shootings or other mass murder–suicide events has a risk factor for perpetrating copycat events, even though nearly everything ever written or said about them is overtly disapproving. The research suggests that the sense of identification matters far more than the moral tone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:51, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'm saying that the neutral "killed themselves" language in an encyclopaedia could plant a seed of suicide in someone's mind. I think that risk could justify the more disapproving tone of "commit suicide", or similar wording, in some articles to give that seed less fertile ground to grow in. I know that for some people self-euthanasia is a rational choice but ... Well, I'm sure you don't need me to labour the point.—S Marshall T/C`
- That sounds like a reasonable description of what was once called "the suicide disease" by doctors. I'm not sure whether that description normalizes suicide or merely reports the facts as they were experienced before the advent of modern medicine. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:27, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- No, not by itself. An example of suicide-normalizing language might be: "Condition X is painful and difficult to treat, and sufferers are much more likely than the general population to kill themselves."—S Marshall T/C 22:21, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
Very well! I withdraw the objection. :)—S Marshall T/C 09:36, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with S Marshall in their example of suicide normalising language and this is something any guideline or essay should cover. I also agree with WAID that attempting a disapproving tone doesn't help. The guidelines above say some language can be stigmatising and this has an effect on two people groups. One is the "surviving friends and family members" that WAID above says deserve our "compassion and gentleness" but the other are people who are self harming or having suicidal thoughts. According to the experts, the stigma for them prevents them seeking or accepting help. SmokeyJoe's comment about "prediction" being a problem is relevant but not fixed IMO by putting the sentence in the past tense.
- By combining "painful and difficult to treat" with "suicide more likely" into one sentence, the juxtaposition suggests one is or could be a reasonable solution to the other, and makes it concrete by using statistics (i.e., not only do some people think it could be a reasonable solution but a significant number have carried through with that idea). I note that Trigeminal neuralgia that WAID refers to barely mentions suicide (though the talk page indicates some debate on the matter). However, Cluster headache says more and does link pain with suicide in a way I don't think is necessary (the section is on signs and symptoms, not prognosis or management).
- One of the guidelines above talks about dispelling myths, and fact checking with expert groups. There is a sensationalist aspect to adding factoids about a "suicide disease" or "suicide headache", which make great headlines. Language used by the press or by historical medical documents can be careless. An informal conversation may say "OMG it is so painful you'll want to kill yourself" but that's not very encyclopaedic. So I wonder if the solution is
- to check the statistics do match the perception
- to weigh up whether the literature thinks a statistical correlation with suicide (or thoughts) is notable for a summary of the condition or just a factoid found by an internet search
- to avoid juxtaposing suffering with suicide in one sentence or section. Symptoms, management and prognosis are separate sections.
- --Colin°Talk 10:20, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Colin's thoughts seem helpful in medical articles but the concern also affects biographies. "Person X died by suicide after contracting condition Y" is at once non-judgmental and suicide-normalizing.—S Marshall T/C 11:02, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that wording implies suffering->suicide. It is tricky because a biography naturally deals with facts in a chronological manner, and one's illness and death often occur sequentially. At Robin Williams the lead currently says "On August 11, 2014, at age 63, Williams died by suicide at his home in Paradise Cay, California. His autopsy revealed undiagnosed Lewy body disease." A while back, the second sentence had "His widow, Susan Schneider, attributed his suicide to his struggle with Lewy body disease." this got shortened to one sentence with " after having lived with undiagnosed Lewy body disease", with an edit summary suggesting RS disagreed on cause. I think the current text, with two unlinked sentences, is about as far from separating suffering->suicide as we can get, considering that LBD is a fatal disease reported by his autopsy. -- Colin°Talk 11:57, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well there's got to be an element of editorial judgment. It's really hard to write about Debbie Purdy or Tony Nicklinson without drawing a link between suffering and suicide. We should probably check with someone Japanese on how to write about seppuku.—S Marshall T/C 00:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
- I have been reading about our (American, but also elsewhere) strange modern idea that death and dying can be "controlled". Perhaps the view from another time/culture would look at such deaths and think less about the disease-based suffering and more about the suffering our culture imposes on us. "How often do you hear someone say, 'I've never seen a dead person', as though they are a different species? And that's just the adults." When death has been hidden from you through your whole life, then it's no wonder that some people are terrified by the prospect of a lengthy and unpredictable period of progressive disability and dying.
- (A scholar of pre-modern Japanese culture might be more relevant than a random Japanese person.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:29, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
- It's compassion that creates hospices and assisted suicide and euthanasia. Less compassionate societies didn't have them.
- Are we any closer to a paragraph on suicide-normalizing language? Should I draft one to give us a starting point?—S Marshall T/C 10:19, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that editors will be able to reliably identify what that is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:17, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Then we need to explain it well, wouldn't you say?—S Marshall T/C 13:01, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- We'd first need to have a shared understanding of what constitutes suicide-normalizing language. Second, we'd need to have some defensible explanation for why our understanding is the right one. That suggests that we need (and need to follow) a handful of sources that directly address the subject. Suicide-normalizing language is a redlink, so we're starting from scratch. Have you found any sources yet? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:53, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- This is all too sensible and polite. You are clearly on the wrong project or are complete newbies. MOS starts from a position of complete misunderstanding. It helps if you both have entirely different value systems and suspect the other's politics are "wrong". One of you needs to propose something the other finds outrageous. The other should make clear the manifest idiocy of the first. Continue to argue past each other while flinging insults and culture-war idioms. Make it clear that whichever has cited sources to enforce their position has just made a kind of Godwin's Law mistake of MOS discussion. Cite an essay you wrote that explains clearly in 4,000 words why you are so so right all the time. Respond with an argument of such verbosity you feel the need to hat it when posting. Begin an RFC with a hastily constructed question you hope will settle the argument once and for all. After a dozen responses, realise with a sinking feeling that your question was suboptimal. Watch the uninformed masses offer their strong opinions. Despair at the closing admin's comments. Misrepresent the closing admin's comments. -- Colin°Talk 17:34, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Such a narrow way of thinking. Sometimes we write RFC questions for the purpose of proving that there is no consensus.
;-p
WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Such a narrow way of thinking. Sometimes we write RFC questions for the purpose of proving that there is no consensus.
- This is all too sensible and polite. You are clearly on the wrong project or are complete newbies. MOS starts from a position of complete misunderstanding. It helps if you both have entirely different value systems and suspect the other's politics are "wrong". One of you needs to propose something the other finds outrageous. The other should make clear the manifest idiocy of the first. Continue to argue past each other while flinging insults and culture-war idioms. Make it clear that whichever has cited sources to enforce their position has just made a kind of Godwin's Law mistake of MOS discussion. Cite an essay you wrote that explains clearly in 4,000 words why you are so so right all the time. Respond with an argument of such verbosity you feel the need to hat it when posting. Begin an RFC with a hastily constructed question you hope will settle the argument once and for all. After a dozen responses, realise with a sinking feeling that your question was suboptimal. Watch the uninformed masses offer their strong opinions. Despair at the closing admin's comments. Misrepresent the closing admin's comments. -- Colin°Talk 17:34, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- We'd first need to have a shared understanding of what constitutes suicide-normalizing language. Second, we'd need to have some defensible explanation for why our understanding is the right one. That suggests that we need (and need to follow) a handful of sources that directly address the subject. Suicide-normalizing language is a redlink, so we're starting from scratch. Have you found any sources yet? WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:53, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Then we need to explain it well, wouldn't you say?—S Marshall T/C 13:01, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that editors will be able to reliably identify what that is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:17, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well there's got to be an element of editorial judgment. It's really hard to write about Debbie Purdy or Tony Nicklinson without drawing a link between suffering and suicide. We should probably check with someone Japanese on how to write about seppuku.—S Marshall T/C 00:28, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that wording implies suffering->suicide. It is tricky because a biography naturally deals with facts in a chronological manner, and one's illness and death often occur sequentially. At Robin Williams the lead currently says "On August 11, 2014, at age 63, Williams died by suicide at his home in Paradise Cay, California. His autopsy revealed undiagnosed Lewy body disease." A while back, the second sentence had "His widow, Susan Schneider, attributed his suicide to his struggle with Lewy body disease." this got shortened to one sentence with " after having lived with undiagnosed Lewy body disease", with an edit summary suggesting RS disagreed on cause. I think the current text, with two unlinked sentences, is about as far from separating suffering->suicide as we can get, considering that LBD is a fatal disease reported by his autopsy. -- Colin°Talk 11:57, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
Colin, you agreed that my example constitutes suicide-normalizing language. Do you accept WAID's view that we need a sourced definition of it before we can write about it?—S Marshall T/C 21:07, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well you aren't asking an expert and WAID has been contemplating this topic longer than me [had to be careful how I worded that bit]. I'm certainly more of a fan of citing and reading what experts think than working it out for myself. But joking aside, I also agree that it helps if we are all on the same page. I wonder, if you guys are serious about an article, an essay or a guideline, that we should take the advice of the WHO guideline: "Media professionals should seek advice from local suicide prevention experts". Perhaps a list of examples would help (some you think are, some you think aren't and some not sure). In addition to medical conditions/drugs and biographies, I guess we need to be careful around articles on certain locations. Are there any other topic areas? -- Colin°Talk 22:56, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- The only other topic area I can think of off the top of my head is those historical events that caused suicide spikes. Stockmarket crashes for example. I'm not finding good sources for "suicide-normalizing language" but I don't think that's necessarily a deal-breaker -- what it means is that it's a concept that I haven't found the right word for yet. Suicide is transmissible -- to you medically-minded editors, I'd say it's infectious (do you need a source for that or are you willing to take my word for it?) I think Wikipedia can be a vector.—S Marshall T/C 23:34, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
- Communicable is the usual word; infectious implies microorganisms inside your body. (Microorganisms outside your body is an infestation.) It's a focus of research for Copycat suicide.
- The policy-writing problem is that if we say "no suicide-normalizing language", then editors will instead have unresolvable fights over whether this or that counts as "suicide-normalizing". The obvious cases, which editors are already handling fairly well, will still be obvious, but for the less-obvious cases, editors will struggle to differentiate between "suicide-normalizing" and IDONTLIKEIT.
- Also, we'll get objections about "no suicide-normalizing language" from the assisted-suicide advocates, since their goal is to normalize suicide under certain conditions. I wonder if articles about Assisted suicide would benefit from a section similar to Alternative cancer treatments#People who choose alternative treatments, which discusses demographics and motivations. It would not be hard to find sources that say people seek assisted suicide because they are desperately afraid. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:08, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
- The only other topic area I can think of off the top of my head is those historical events that caused suicide spikes. Stockmarket crashes for example. I'm not finding good sources for "suicide-normalizing language" but I don't think that's necessarily a deal-breaker -- what it means is that it's a concept that I haven't found the right word for yet. Suicide is transmissible -- to you medically-minded editors, I'd say it's infectious (do you need a source for that or are you willing to take my word for it?) I think Wikipedia can be a vector.—S Marshall T/C 23:34, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
Sources?
- Are Suicidal Behaviors Contagious in Adolescence?: Using Longitudinal Data to Examine Suicide Suggestion.
- The Social Roots of Suicide: Theorizing How the External Social World Matters to Suicide and Suicide Prevention.
—S Marshall T/C 11:07, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
- And, finally, I've unearthed a reasonably direct set of recommendations for writing about suicide in the manner that we've characterized as non-suicide-normalizing, in this source. The extract that seems most relevant to me reads:
Given the substantial evidence for suicide contagion, a recommended suicide prevention strategy involves educating reporters, editors, and film and television producers about contagion in order to yield media stories that minimize harm. ... (1) Question if the suicide is newsworthy. Suicide is a common cause of death. Indeed, it accounts for more teen deaths than all natural causes combined. (2) Do not misrepresent suicide as a mysterious act by an otherwise “healthy” or “high achieving” person. (3) Indicate that suicide is most often a fatal complication of different types of mental illness, many of which are treatable. (4) Do not present suicide as a reasonable way of problem solving. (5) Do not portray suicide in a heroic or romantic fashion. (6) Exercise care with pictures of the victim and/or grieving relatives and friends to avoid fostering overidentification with the victim and inadvertently glorifying the death. (7) Avoid providing a detailed description of method and site. (8) Limit the prominence, length, and number of stories about a particular suicide. Avoid front page coverage. (9) Try to oversee headlines. Some responsibly written stories are spoiled by sensational and inappropriate headlines.(10) Provide local treatment resource information.
- Points (3), (4) and (10) seem rather difficult.—S Marshall T/C 01:01, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- That source is 20 years old, so it might not be the best thing to formally cite. That said, this section aligns pretty closely with the other things I've read, although (3) may not be widely supported any longer – or it's supported in the sense that "most often" means "at least 51%", but not "in nearly all cases", and if "different types of mental illness" includes ADHD and autism and actue stress and substance abuse, rather than the stereotypical years-long depression or psychotic illnesses.
- (4) doesn't sound difficult to me, except perhaps when writing about legally provided physician-assisted suicide. What difficulties are you seeing?
- (10) is done on several other Wikipedias (German example). The English Wikipedia could do the same if we wanted to, but so far, editors here have just been linking to articles like suicide prevention or List of suicide crisis lines instead. (Something like a geolocation tool that automatically displayed relevant phone numbers would require some software work.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:28, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Have you looked at https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/258814/WHO-MSD-MER-17.5-eng.pdf yet? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:43, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I did look at that because it comes up prominently in a search for "suicide normalising language". I'm frustrated by the fact that it talks about that term without defining it.
- 3 seems hard because we couldn't describe someone's suicide as mental health related without a good source and these are often not available, particularly with recent celebrity deaths which appear to be a main cause for concern.
- 4 seems hard because when we present someone's suicide in the context of their life, NPOV and non-judgmental language links suicide to circumstances -- such as financial, marital or health circumstances, or pain management -- in a way that suggests the celebrity used suicide as problem-solving for those circumstances.
- 10 seems hard because it borders on anti-suicide advocacy and editors tend to oppose advocacy on Wikipedia.—S Marshall T/C 09:28, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- 4 is perhaps harder for biography but per the discussion above wrt medical conditions or drugs, we could apply this by avoiding linking suffering with suicide as a consequence. Wrt 7 some newspapers won't mention the method at all. That would probably be difficult for WP to justify if sources mention it, though I think it is a strong argument for keeping that out of the lead or infobox and off the main page. Some of these news-media guidelines might be directly appropriate for the "in the news" main page. A helpline banner could be appropriate on a bio of someone who recently died, but perhaps less so for an older entry? Or it could be triggered by certain search terms like Google does? I guess the Wikipedia app could be location-aware and handle certain search terms like Google. -- Colin°Talk 14:19, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that it's unfortunate that the WHO doesn't define their terms.
- I don't think that the first part of 3 is difficult for a biography; we should accept a news article saying that someone has autism or depression or whatever just as easily as we accept a news article saying someone has cancer or saying someone is gay. The difficult part is probably the key focus for the advice-givers, and harder for us: to go from "He had depression" to "He had depression, which is usually treatable".
- Perhaps we should avoid routinely presenting suicide "in context" that way. Single-cause explanations are basically always wrong. It's like saying "The car wrecked because it was speeding", instead of saying "The car wrecked because the driver was speeding, and the driver was speeding because he was running late, the road was too wide and straight for the posted speed, the speed limit sign was blocked by a tree branch, and his GPS nav system doesn't warn him when he's driving too fast". The Chain of events (accident analysis) is almost always multifactorial in both car wrecks and suicide.
- @Colin, what do you think about suggesting that Template:Current be updated to include an optional sentence about suicide? Unlike why we prefer Wikipedia:No disclaimers in permanent messages, a strictly temporary "If you need help, see the list of crisis lines" might be acceptable. I believe the Trust and Safety team (=the WMF team that we route all of our on-wiki suicide threats to) maintains a list at Meta-Wiki. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:53, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Do you mean a flag like
suicide=yes
? I'm not sure about that or a separate banner in a related template. If done on one template, I think the notice would have to be clearly a separate box, rather than a sentence tagged on the end of a "please help!" editing message. In other words, for readers, they would appear to be separate notices. -- Colin°Talk 10:09, 10 December 2021 (UTC)- I think it could be more generic (
crisis=yes
), but that's the general idea. I don't think that it would need to be a separate box. I think that a separate box would not have community support. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:43, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think it could be more generic (
- Do you mean a flag like
- 4 is perhaps harder for biography but per the discussion above wrt medical conditions or drugs, we could apply this by avoiding linking suffering with suicide as a consequence. Wrt 7 some newspapers won't mention the method at all. That would probably be difficult for WP to justify if sources mention it, though I think it is a strong argument for keeping that out of the lead or infobox and off the main page. Some of these news-media guidelines might be directly appropriate for the "in the news" main page. A helpline banner could be appropriate on a bio of someone who recently died, but perhaps less so for an older entry? Or it could be triggered by certain search terms like Google does? I guess the Wikipedia app could be location-aware and handle certain search terms like Google. -- Colin°Talk 14:19, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Have you looked at https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/258814/WHO-MSD-MER-17.5-eng.pdf yet? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:43, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
How we write at the moment
I'm looking at recent (last-decade) deaths from List of suicides, and I checked the first five. Arrestingly, all of them are women.
Stephanie Adams: On the evening of May 17, 2018, Adams checked into a 25th-floor penthouse in the Gotham Hotel on 46th Street in Manhattan with her seven year old son Vincent. The next morning, both were found dead on a second-floor balcony in the hotel's rear courtyard. According to law enforcement officials, Adams and her husband were involved in a custody battle, and hours before checking into the hotel, Adams told the New York Post that her husband and his lawyer were preventing her from taking her son on vacation.[2][34] The New York City Medical Examiner ruled Adams' death as a suicide and that of her son as a murder.
Doesn't say Adams' murder-suicide was because of a custody battle, but the order of ideas suggests it.
Leelah Alcorn: Born and raised in Kings Mills, Ohio, Alcorn was assigned male at birth and grew up in a family affiliated with the Churches of Christ movement. At age 14, she came out as transgender to her parents, Carla and Doug Alcorn, who refused to accept her female gender identity. When she was 16, they denied her request to undergo transition treatment, instead sending her to Christian-based conversion therapy with the intention of convincing her to reject her gender identity and accept her gender as assigned at birth. After she revealed her attraction toward males to her classmates, her parents removed her from school and revoked her access to social media. In her suicide note, Alcorn cited loneliness and alienation as key reasons for her decision to end her life and blamed her parents for causing these feelings.
I've posted that one extract but the whole article bears close reading in the light of this discussion. It unambiguously presents Alcorn's suicide as her parents' fault, and taken as a whole, in my view this article is a clear example of what I'm calling "suicide-normalizing language". A transgender teenager who is having trouble transitioning might well find and read this article.
Gia Allemand: On August 12, 2013, Allemand was admitted to University Hospital in New Orleans after an attempted suicide by hanging.[20] She was declared brain dead and removed from life support two days later at the age of 29.[3] At the time of her death, she was living in New Orleans and dating NBA player Ryan Anderson,[6] who was playing for the New Orleans Pelicans. Allemand had a disorder known as premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD). Her longtime publicist, Penelope Jean Hayes,[21] was interviewed by Phil McGraw on Dr. Phil on the topic of Allemand's suicide and the pressures of celebrity, image, and finding love and happiness.[22]
Presents Allemand's suicide as multicausal, but the order of ideas emphasizes PMDD.
August Ames: Weeks prior to her death, Ames said that she had a history of bipolar depressive disorder and dissociative identity disorder (multiple personality) due to a traumatic childhood, stating: "Some days I'll be fine and if I'm not doing anything I'll get these awful flashbacks of my childhood and I get very depressed and I can't get out of bed and cancel my scenes for like a week or two."[8] ... In December 2017, Ames was due to perform in a pornographic scene, but withdrew when she learned that the co-star was a man who had appeared in gay pornography.
Presents Ames' suicide as multicausal, but the order of ideas emphasizes childhood trauma.
Sei Ashina: On September 14, 2020, Ashina, at age 36, was found dead at her home in Shinjuku by her family[7] after failing to answer calls and messages, in a suspected suicide.[2]
Does not attempt to give reasons for Ashina's suicide, and in my view is not suicide-normalizing at all.—S Marshall T/C 10:57, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think that one of the issues is that at the time, the death gets lots of press coverage, which provokes editors to dump all the facts into the article. This may end up out of all proportion to their life story but does anyone revisit to reduce the material? Unless someone is famous enough to get a biography book, the WP:WEIGHT of readily accessible source material may tend towards over-emphasising this part.
For Alcorn, their death is the only notable part of their life. Normalising suicide in that child's circumstances is exactly what advocates were trying to achieve: that this is the inevitable consequence of your conversion therapy and why it should be banned. We don't just write articles for transgender teenagers, but also for their parents, friends, teachers, health professionals, law makers, etc. That article is way too big and certainly flawed, but more generally how do we talk about people groups (e.g., transgender, or with terrible fatal conditions, say) and the correlation with higher levels of self harm and suicidal thoughts or actions. The world isn't perfect, and these groups don't get access to the mental health or other services that might reduce that link. So I don't think we can just pretend that provided those groups get such services, everything is fine. -- Colin°Talk 15:46, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- I'm concerned about the second in your list, because it doesn't feel like an encyclopedia article. It feels sensationalistic: "Let's all see which profanities this child addressed to her parents!"
- I just had a go at the middle one, and I wonder if you think that's better. Also, one of the cited sources has a family member saying that she wasn't depressed, so the uncited PMDD thing might not be true/relevant.
- I think Colin is correct about the mechanism. People dump every little detail in, and then skip the "clean up the mess later" step.
- Also, in terms of talking about groups, the reason that trans suicide attempt rates are so high is because being trans is (historically) comorbid with some conditions whose rates are eye-wateringly high. I still haven't seen a good source that says the autistic+trans rate is X (autistics are about three times as likely to attempt suicide than neurotypical people), or the personality disorder+trans rate is Y (~75% of people with BPD make at least one attempt and ~10% die; people with narcissistic personality disorder choose disproportionately lethal methods), but the trans-alone rate is much lower at Z. I hope that we'll have those sources some day, because the numbers I've seen wildly overrepresent the risk to a person who is trans but doesn't have any of these unrelated suicide risks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:08, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I, too, agree with Colin about the mechanism. Thank you for your improvements to Gia Allemande! I think they're very helpful. On Alcorn, I feel the article should inform what we write in essays/guidelines/MOS about suicide.—S Marshall T/C 10:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I was disappointed in the Alcorn article. It is sensationalistic. It includes contents that lean towards promotionalism and RGW. For example, the lead and the body spend several sentences saying that an activist tweeted that the parents should be charged with a crime. Apparently the non-logic there was that since someone ended up in jail for actual sex crimes (i.e., using a video camera to remotely and nonconsensually watch someone engage in sex acts in a private space) that motivated a suicide, then people should also go to jail and have their children forced into foster care for strictly legal behavior (i.e., expressing a personal opinion that others find distressing and wildly misguided) that also motivated a suicide. Why is "guy was emoting on Twitter instead of thinking things through logically" a key point to include in that article? Nobody knows. Maybe the answer is that none of the sources thought it worthwhile to point out the illogic here, either.
- The article also extensively quotes from the suicide note (media guidelines recommend against this, by the way; news media is advised to say that a suicide note exists but nothing about its contents). The selected quotations included emphasize that Alcorn despaired of ever being loved enough, wanted to present herself as a martyr, and that the most important thing was to provoke shame and cast blame. There is nothing in the article that wonders why Alcorn didn't take a different approach, like getting emancipated, arranging to live with a different family, or running away from home. (See also Narcissistic personality disorder, the one personality disorder clearly linked to using suicide as a [short-sighted] method of punishing others.) Again, maybe the failure is in the sources, but it doesn't feel like an encyclopedia article. It feels like a human-interest magazine article. As a result, I am not enthusiastic about taking it as an example of what editors should do. The bits I read feel more like a bad example than a good one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think S Marshall was suggesting the Alcorn article was an example of good practice, but rather a good example of bad practice. -- Colin°Talk 22:27, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- That was indeed my intent.—S Marshall T/C 23:14, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think S Marshall was suggesting the Alcorn article was an example of good practice, but rather a good example of bad practice. -- Colin°Talk 22:27, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
- I, too, agree with Colin about the mechanism. Thank you for your improvements to Gia Allemande! I think they're very helpful. On Alcorn, I feel the article should inform what we write in essays/guidelines/MOS about suicide.—S Marshall T/C 10:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
Refactoring into document mode
I have begun an attempt to make these thoughts into an essay here.—S Marshall T/C 12:24, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- A couple of quick thoughts:
- The term isn't our invention; it already exists elsewhere.
- I don't know how much effort we need to go to in service of convincing people that they should write good articles. Editors are generally convinced of that part already.
- The image is US-centric. Also, it may inspire fatalism in the readers of the page. Let's give up now, since that graph only goes up.
- I think a little more emphasis on NPOV would be good. An article that normalizes suicide as a response to, e.g., failing an exam or a relationship problem, is an article that fails NPOV.
- It is possible to write about assisted suicide and euthanasia without normalizing these decisions. We don't even have to accept these as "rational and informed decisions". Deciding that you're so afraid of the dying process that you want to get it over with promptly may not actually be "rational" (fear-driven decisions are almost the definition of irrationality), and the decision is very likely not "informed" by understanding what the dying process looks like and what holistic comfort could (should) be available. Also, voluntary refusal of food and fluids is legal is basically every developed country. It doesn't require assistance from anyone, traveling to a euthanasia clinic, or (usually) any amount of bureaucratic pre-approval for the mentally and legally competent adults who are able to use the legal assisted suicide provisions. I wonder how "rational and informed" we could really consider someone who rejected the readily available, free (as in freedom) options in favor of a more intrusive process. You could write "Purdy considered some options and decided to kill herself at a euthanasia clinic", but you could also write, with at least equal truth, that "Purdy was not given the emotional tools and support she needed to adjust to her changing abilities, or the information she needed to feel a greater sense of comfort with and control over the process of dying. She was so afraid of her illness and the future she imagined it would produce that she thought it would be better to be dead than to live through the process".
- I like the advice about biographies.
- The colon+dash punctuation is uncommon these days, and you've got two of them. If you're going to keep them, they should presumably have proper em dashes instead of the hyphens. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:45, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- I wouldn't bold the word "contagious" in the lead paragraph. Especially in these pandemic times, it reads a bit sensational. I agree that this isn't an invention here. WHO say "Don’t use language which sensationalizes or normalizes suicide, or presents it as a constructive solution to problems". That's perhaps something you could lead with or nutshell even. My other source says "There is a potential risk that accessing self‑harm related content will normalise self‑harm and potentially discourage disclosure or seeking of professional help (Daine et al. 2015), but there is no empirical evidence for this." so the idea of "normalising" these behaviours is a well known concern. It would give the essay much more power if instead presented as a fact that experts agree on, rather than an invention of editors. I also agree the image isn't helping. I don't think you need the sentence about historical "suicide diseases". We know from the "committed" RFC that editors who wouldn't dream of using archaic language normally, suddenly find themselves extremely attached to "how we've always done it". So lets not plant ideas into people's head that are unhelpful. For the sentence "Avoid describing method and site in any detail" you could append " and if included at all, avoid the lead and infobox".
- I think the "response to a single event, a single medical diagnosis, or a single mental health condition" part will be tricky. If our sources are doing this, there will be pressure to follow the sources. And chronology will tend to juxtapose these matters regardless. Can we give editors any more advice. Is it possible to give some before/after examples? -- Colin°Talk 10:12, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- Although this document is in my userspace, I view it as the product of three minds and I assert no personal ownership or control of it. Please do feel absolutely free to dive in and improve it!—S Marshall T/C 10:55, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll try to look later. I'm a bit concerned about the assisted dying controversy. I think WAID's argument above seems to be saying that the person asking for assisted suicide is irrational, basing their decision on ignorance and fear, and that their death wouldn't have been as bad as they feared if they got the required support. Whereas S Marshall's current text says that for some people in that position, their decision is rational and informed (i.e. not fearfully ignorant). Those views seem incompatible, though perhaps there's some common ground I don't see. If so, maybe we have to accept reasonable people take quite different positions on this matter. What then could be written in this guide? We could leave out assisted suicide altogether, or mention that the matter of whether it is always rational and informed is controversial and Wikipedia's NPOV may require us to cover both sides of that debate. My guess is that in the UK at least, S Marshall's text, for those with a terminal condition, probably reflects the majority viewpoint. Of course, the majority are not well informed or well read on this matter, which won't directly affect many people, and only appears in the news when the law is being challenged. But even if this view is an ignorant one, any guideline challenging it would struggle, and that could be a distraction from the message about other suicide. -- Colin°Talk 12:03, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- My general antipathy to suicide-normalizing language does have an end point. I think that when a person is suffering, and their suffering can't be alleviated, self-euthanasia can be a rational decision. I think that where a person demonstrates a clear wish to end their own life and engages in a sustained campaign to achieve this, there comes a point where we need to accept their decision (I'm thinking for example of the circumstances of Pretty v United Kingdom).—S Marshall T/C 13:44, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- The gap is between whether it "can" be a rational decision vs whether it "is" a rational decision. One would presumably not want any Wikipedia article to declare that "So-and-so said this was a rational decision", even if you were personally convinced of the truth. That's content for a magazine, not for an encyclopedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:37, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- My general antipathy to suicide-normalizing language does have an end point. I think that when a person is suffering, and their suffering can't be alleviated, self-euthanasia can be a rational decision. I think that where a person demonstrates a clear wish to end their own life and engages in a sustained campaign to achieve this, there comes a point where we need to accept their decision (I'm thinking for example of the circumstances of Pretty v United Kingdom).—S Marshall T/C 13:44, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll try to look later. I'm a bit concerned about the assisted dying controversy. I think WAID's argument above seems to be saying that the person asking for assisted suicide is irrational, basing their decision on ignorance and fear, and that their death wouldn't have been as bad as they feared if they got the required support. Whereas S Marshall's current text says that for some people in that position, their decision is rational and informed (i.e. not fearfully ignorant). Those views seem incompatible, though perhaps there's some common ground I don't see. If so, maybe we have to accept reasonable people take quite different positions on this matter. What then could be written in this guide? We could leave out assisted suicide altogether, or mention that the matter of whether it is always rational and informed is controversial and Wikipedia's NPOV may require us to cover both sides of that debate. My guess is that in the UK at least, S Marshall's text, for those with a terminal condition, probably reflects the majority viewpoint. Of course, the majority are not well informed or well read on this matter, which won't directly affect many people, and only appears in the news when the law is being challenged. But even if this view is an ignorant one, any guideline challenging it would struggle, and that could be a distraction from the message about other suicide. -- Colin°Talk 12:03, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
- Although this document is in my userspace, I view it as the product of three minds and I assert no personal ownership or control of it. Please do feel absolutely free to dive in and improve it!—S Marshall T/C 10:55, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
Special ArbCom 2021 Elections voter message
M-M Duruflé
In case you don't watch: I removed the fanpov tag from Marie-Madeleine Duruflé, - the fan being quoted being the obit writer from the New York Times. I wanted to mention her in a DYK and was told "not with these tags". I wish I had researched then. - Today is the birthday of a friend who met her in person, asking for permission to perform a work by her husband in a German translation, which she granted. That made me look closer. A great woman. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:46, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for cleaning up that article!—S Marshall T/C 12:11, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
DRV Shooting of Ashli Babbitt
Hello friend. Thanks for your close. Would you be willing to edit in something about the article should be kept and not redirected for now, just to make it super clear? Already getting folks restoring the redirect on the article. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 02:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
The "split" creating the content fork should have been reverted on sight, not sent to AFD. Now that the process is complete, BRD takes over. Feoffer (talk) 03:34, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think S Marshall's suggestion of starting an Rfc for anyone who is unsatisfied with the results of the Afd and DRV was a good one. Much better than a perpetual edit war. StonyBrook (talk) 06:07, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
FWIW, I think that was a wonderfully nuanced and appropriate close for the DRV. Jclemens (talk) 06:19, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- It was a good close of that discussion. And explaining it all so clearly helps a lot. Hobit (talk) 16:27, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Closer's Barnstar | ||
For your well-done closure at Talk:Race and crime. ––FormalDude talk 02:43, 15 December 2021 (UTC) |
Asking for close reconsideration
Hi. I've waited a few days to bring this up, hoping that one of the editors at bee hummingbird would add the dinosaur fact back on the page somewhere. But nobody has. Probably because if it is allowed in the article at all it would then again be lead worthy. So, please reconsider your close of the discussion which states that consensus exists to remove the fact from the lead. Because what exists are lots of editors saying in various words that they don't like it, that it gives them the willies, and that Wikipedia's readers will catch the vapors and faint right away after reading that the bee hummingbird, bless its soul, is not only the smallest bird but is the smallest known dinosaur. All of the objections to including that fact in the lead were refuted not once but several times, in several different ways. Not one objection holds up, at least I don't see one. Since consensus is not a show of hands but keeping agreements as to how Wikipedia does business behind the curtains, some of those agreements were brought up during the discussion. And, not surprisingly, nobody had a point not countered by what I'd describe as common sense mixed with a dash of wonder and seasoning and a jolly (oh, wait, I've digressed, thinking about Christmas). The fact that the bee hummingbird is the smallest known dinosaur exists on several Wikipedia pages, and highlights a couple of them, but it can't be allowed on its own page. This is a quandary. Please read the discussion again with an eye for why editors don't want it on the page (and again, wouldn't a section on the page, which should be perfectly fine, also be worth a sentence or sentence-portion summary in the lead?, hence the quandary) because there really isn't a good unrefuted reason presented in the discussion. May I ask where do you see one? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:24, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- p.s. Did you know that the Kitti's hog-nosed bat is the world's smallest mammal, the Paedocypris progenetica the smallest fish, or the Paedophryne amauensis the smallest vertebrate? I didn't, until I just read it in their leads. Precedent worthy? Randy Kryn (talk) 21:32, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Randy. It's agreed, and well-sourced, that birds are dinosaurs and the bee hummingbird is the world's smallest dinosaur. But editors don't want to say that in the lede, and the fact that they don't invokes WP:ONUS. Because WP:ONUS is policy, my hands are absolutely tied here. There must be consensus for inclusion or else the disputed fact gets removed -- even though it's sourced and accurate. Sorry. I hope that doesn't make you too unhappy.—S Marshall T/C 22:45, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- Hello, and the best of Christmas season to you. Consensus is reached "using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense" according to WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS, and in that discussion I may have been the only editor using any of those. Everyone else was using "I don't like it" reasoning that, oddly enough, readers would be shocked, shocked Ize tell ya, and confused beyond belief that the bee hummingbird is the smallest known dinosaur. I'd think my reasoning during the discussion satisfies ONUS and tips towards keeping the lead as it was when the discussion started, including the dinosaur fact which was already in the lead and used when the bee hummingbird descriptor was the featured picture on the main page and is still used in its featured picture on the birds portal. Nobody really gave a policy or common sense reason to remove it, so common sense would fall on keeping it where it was when the discussion started. Aside from that, does your close preclude, allow, or remain neutral about including the dinosaur information in a small separate section on the page, or in the first paragraph after the lead. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:17, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- Seasonal cheer to you too! The RfC question was very clearly and specifically about whether the disputed information belonged in the lede, and that's why I phrased my close as I did. The community has yet to decide whether the disputed information can be put elsewhere. This means that you may put the disputed information in the article somewhere other than the lede, unless and until the community decides otherwise.Taking my closer hat off and giving you my personal opinion, I suggest being cautious here and giving the disputed information low prominence when you add it back in. If editors think you're trying to do an end-run around the previous RfC they may be apt to get a little testy. I think it's best to be respectful, patient and discreet here.—S Marshall T/C 13:04, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, probably good advice. Maybe I'll bring it up after New Year's, although "The community" has yet to give a good reason why it shouldn't be in the lead. As my dear mum used to say "Dinosaurs of a feather flock together". Randy Kryn (talk) 13:32, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
RENT CONTROL
What a great conversation you cut short here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard/Archive_89#Rent_control:_%22on_consensus_among_economists%22 What improvements in the articles did you achieve by cutting off such a conversation? 83.37.61.228 (talk) 15:21, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- Merry Christmas, Pedrote112. Sorry that conversation didn't work out as you hoped. I hope that doesn't make you too unhappy.—S Marshall T/C 00:45, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year!
RFA 2021 Completed
The 2021 re-examination of RFA has been completed. 23 (plus 2 variants) ideas were proposed. Over 200 editors participated in this final phase. Three changes gained consensus and two proposals were identified by the closers as having the potential to gain consensus with some further discussion and iteration. Thanks to all who helped to close the discussion, and in particular Primefac, Lee Vilenski, and Ymblanter for closing the most difficult conversations and for TonyBallioni for closing the review of one of the closes.
The following proposals gained consensus and have all been implemented:
- Revision of standard question 1 to
Why are you interested in becoming an administrator?
Special thanks to xaosflux for help with implementation. - A new process, Administrative Action Review (XRV) designed to review if an editor's specific use of an advanced permission, including the admin tools, is consistent with policy in a process similar to that of deletion review and move review. Thanks to all the editors who contributed (and are continuing to contribute) to the discussion of how to implement this proposal.
- Removal of autopatrol from the administrator's toolkit. Special thanks to Wugapodes and Seddon for their help with implementation.
The following proposals were identified by the closers as having the potential to gain consensus with some further discussion and iteration:
- An option for people to run for temporary adminship (proposal, discussion, & close)
- An optional election process (proposal & discussion and close review & re-close)
Editors who wish to discuss these ideas or other ideas on how to try to address any of the six issues identified during phase 1 for which no proposal gained are encouraged to do so at RFA's talk page or an appropriate village pump.
A final and huge thanks all those who participated in this effort to improve our RFA process over the last 4 months.
This is the final update with no further talk page messages planned.
01:47, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
There is a mop reserved in your name
You are a remarkable editor in many ways. You would be a good administrator, in my opinion, and appear to be well qualified. You personify an administrator without tools and have gained my support already! |
Greetings S Marshall. I have seen you around, many times, and I've always been impressed with your manner and clue. I have especially come to appreciate you having collaborated on matters of RfA reform, and now, the implementation of XRV. I believe that your contributions and editing history are sufficient, upon review, to foster the community trust and support needed for your candidacy to succeed. I am confident that a number of respected administrators would be willing to nominate you, and I'd certainly be glad to give my own, unreserved, support. Nevertheless, I have reviewed RfA 1 and 2, and do understand if you've sworn the process off entirely. I guess it mostly depends on you, and whether your interested in becoming an admin or not. Either way, you are an administrator without tools and Wikipedia benefits because you are here. With sincere and best regards.--John Cline (talk) 10:04, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for your kind words. I am unwilling to submit to the RFA process, and I think would be a poor candidate. I've spoken a lot of truth to power over the years and not everyone shares your high opinion of me. Besides, if I had access to the block button, I would rapidly and decisively use it to make Wikipedia a better place, and the community probably wouldn't approve.—S Marshall T/C 10:16, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- I regret to see you are still unwilling, but I'm not surprised. I do however respectfully continue to disagree that you'd be a poor candidate: your combination of integrity, empathy, and ability to cut through complexity with a clear explanation of a well-founded position on the issues would be attractive to many in an admin candidate. (I also trust your knowledge of the blocking policy.) Yngvadottir (talk) 00:38, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- You still ought to be an admin. Frowny face.—S Marshall T/C 01:30, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- I and many potential voters beg to differ :-) But so what? Even if I were still one, you'd still be a good addition to the admin corps. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:55, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- You still ought to be an admin. Frowny face.—S Marshall T/C 01:30, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- I regret to see you are still unwilling, but I'm not surprised. I do however respectfully continue to disagree that you'd be a poor candidate: your combination of integrity, empathy, and ability to cut through complexity with a clear explanation of a well-founded position on the issues would be attractive to many in an admin candidate. (I also trust your knowledge of the blocking policy.) Yngvadottir (talk) 00:38, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- Late to the party, but i agree with John Cline's assessment (and Ygnvadottir's); i think an RfA in your name would probably be rough, but i also think that you would be a strong admin ~ for what it's worth. Happy days ~ LindsayHello 16:25, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- Well, I know it's unlikely. I'd be enthusiastic to support, though. (The quote paraphasable as "don't get drawn into an argument about nothing and quit in disgust" has carried me through a lot.) Vaticidalprophet 00:23, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
- Well, you don't have one of the two main criteria which are "got in back when it was easy" or "has no high visibility history" such as the candidate that had 99% support until Arbcom banned them. And we have worked together (when of course, you were right :-) ) and worked in opposition (when, of course, you were wrong :-) ) Your wisdom surpasses at least 90% of current admins. I'd be honored to nominate and / or support you. OK? In in the nomination I'd appropriately rename "RFA" to "is willing to serve if approved" OK? North8000 (talk) 02:05, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with LindsayH's assessment. You'd not have an easy RfA, but that is far from the same thing as being a weak candidate. I'm guessing you might be surprised at the number of people who you think would oppose you who hold their fire, and sometimes there is value in having your enemies break cover and declare themselves. I can absolutely sympathise with you not liking the idea of putting your name forward, but I'd like to encourage you to consider doing so again anyway. — Charles Stewart (talk) 13:50, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- ITT: A bunch of people who should be admins, saying they shouldn't be admins[Humor] casualdejekyll 18:24, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
Discussion touching on NPROF on WP:Deletion review/Log/2022 January 11#Pete Vainowski
Since that discussion is overlong, I'd rather not weigh in there, but I was struck by the conjunction of two remarks you made in your exchange with Cbl62:
- "Yes, I do believe that it's wildly disproportionate to have 261 articles about physicists and 23,226 articles about footballers."
- "Yes, the GNG should govern the notability of every topic and particularly every biography of a living person, and yes, I have for years advocated that the GNG should trump SNGs in all cases."
I'm rather confident that deprecation of the SNGs so that the GNG applied uniformly would have a far worse effect on the chance of articles about physicists surviving AfD than it would on our articles about footballers. I'm quite certain that the relaxation of the curious conjunction of criteria that GNG requires in NPROF allows quality, verifiable articles to be written on subjects that do not satisfy GNG. — Charles Stewart (talk) 13:28, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Charles. My position is that we should not host a mainspace biography of a living person unless that biography has two independent, high quality, reasonably in-depth sources. Think of me as a GNG fundamentalist, if you like.—S Marshall T/C 17:31, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
- Sure, I've been on DRV often enough to be aware of your position. It's the juxtaposition with regret at the ratio of physicists to footballers that provoked my post. Perhaps a thought experiment makes the point clearer: suppose we waved a magic wand and not only were SNGs to fall by the wayside but an army of faery Wikipedians went through all our bios and conducted AfDs on all GNG-unworthy cases. At the end of the process, we have 11,000 footballer articles and 80 articles about physicists. Are you happy that Wikipedia conforms closer to your preferred policy or regretful that the disproportion has become even wilder? — Charles Stewart (talk) 12:49, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
- I'd be pleased but not delighted. If I ever become Ruling Tyrant of Wikipedia, what we'd have is consolidated articles. Manchester United footballers, NASA physicists, Heidelberg University Faculty of Chemistry and Earth Sciences, etc. The individual bios would be transcluded, for ease of moving them when they change team/employer.—S Marshall T/C 17:27, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
- That's an intriguing idea, but I think the people concerned would break out of the box. There are sportspeople who go on to have distinguished (or notorious) careers in other fields—especially Olympians, where our inclusion criteria are IMO even more unbalanced than for footy, since we exclude top-flight footy players from many countries that don't yet have huge corporate investment in the teams—and professors who also do other noteworthy things. In any case the huge imbalance in press coverage would bloat the articles with details about sportspeople of recent decades that we don't have for the vast majority of professors until they die (such as the entirety of their personal lives) and that we have for vanishingly few sports greats of past eras. Your position on notability is undoubtedly better thought out than mine, but it seems to me that the problem from an encyclopedic point of view is our use of coverage in reliable sources as a proxy for notability. We're between a rock and a hard place: ultimately all press coverage and all but a tiny minority of books (many of them self-published) is sensationalistic to the extent that it's published to sell, but the alternative is to make value judgements about who or what is worthy of coverage (as we see with our bias against inclusion of alternative medicine, minority religious and spiritual beliefs, popular novelists of past eras, internet-famous people, and porn, and the battles over schools, roads and railroads, and of course the minefield of businesses and business executives, while certain categories of articles, smartphone and game console models and books to name two non-person categories, get an almost automatic pass). Leaving aside the science-based reasoning for WP:FRINGE as out of place here since the issue here is notability, we tie ourselves in knots and do the reader a disservice over whether we should cover notorious people—which amounts to a moral judgement—or whether we should cover people where we "don't have enough material to write a proper biography", which amounts to a values-based judgement on whether a person is important enough to override the concern that press or sports drafts database coverage doesn't exist for where they were born and raised, and is uncomfortably adjacent to the bias in published coverage that leads us to have a separate (and often dispensed with) "Personal life" section for men and dating/marriage history interwoven with the career for women. This leads me to disagree with you on the merits of using only GNG, even for people alone, because both the vagaries of archiving, especially online, and our understandable tendency to tighten the requirements for reliable sources would mean we'd lose a large number of notable topics and we'd be left with a hugely RECENTIST encyclopedia; and to take the unpopular position of opposing higher standards for inclusion of BLPs, because we'd wind up just reflecting the biases of the common denominator of editors. In view of our encyclopedic mission, while like all of us I have a personal list of biographical and other categories I'd like to radically prune, I think it's more important to include as many topics as possible for the readers' sake, especially topics that many—or disproportionately powerful—editors don't like or don't think are important—and re: BLPs, our efforts should focus on neutral presentation, if necessary via extreme brevity with many refs (the accusation of refbombing has always struck me as bizarre and counterproductive, given that we aim both to show where all information is drawn from and how widely the matter has been covered). Anyway ... this has been your morning/afternoon/evening dose of gratuitous pondering. Yngvadottir (talk) 23:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
- Fascinating. I've thought several times that we could hypothetically make a rule which says that people who are reliable sources are always notable. Still hesitant about the idea and haven't finished thinking it through.—S Marshall T/C 00:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Prompt to self
Discretionary sanctions topic area changes
In a process that began last year with WP:DS2021, the Arbitration Committee is evaluating Discretionary Sanctions (DS) in order to improve it. A larger package of reforms is slated for sometime this year. From the work done so far, it became clear a number of areas may no longer need DS or that some DS areas may be overly broad.
The topics proposed for revocation are:
- Senkaku islands
- Waldorf education
- Ancient Egyptian race controversy
- Scientology
- Landmark worldwide
The topics proposed for a rewording of what is covered under DS are:
- India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan
- Armenia/Azerbaijan
Additionally any Article probation topics not already revoked are proposed for revocation.
Community feedback is invited and welcome at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions. --Barkeep49 (talk) 16:59, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
Just a thought
Would an "oppose" along the lines of "thanks for volunteering, but..." have been sufficient, or was there some reason to emphatically oppose the candidacy of a 16-year-old with "absolutely not"? When adults are mean to kids, that shows a lack of maturity, judgment, and discretion by the adult, and it's not good for the website. Levivich 14:52, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, right, 16 is a child in the US. It's true that I'm normally kinder to RfA candidates than that and I generally advocate a respectful culture at RfA. My objections to that particular candidate are pretty strong though.—S Marshall T/C 16:42, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Noticed
User:S Marshall/RfC close log. Somehow you got away with closing all those stressful discussions, and are still around to tell the tale! Whenever I happen to look at WP:AN/RFC I turn the page quickly and go work on something else. Your experience might suggest that more people should draw attention to difficult things they have handled. Thanks for your work. EdJohnston (talk) 19:33, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- Why, thank you. It's nice to be noticed.—S Marshall T/C 21:12, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
Apology owed
Good morning! Or afternoon, or evening, depending on your location. I owe you an apology for my comment on this AfD discussion. The way I reacted to your response to another users !vote was out of line and I sincerely apologize! Clearly I wasn't assuming good faith in this regard. There's been a pretty heated debate recently about NFL players in particular, and what criteria they should be held against when it comes to GNG and NSPORTS, and for whatever reason I read your response to one of the comments as sarcastic, which obviously it wasn't. Sorry again, and I'll do my best to avoid that in the future! SPF121188 (tell me!) (contribs) 13:47, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- No hard feelings at all. To be fair I do feel it's unfair that sportspeople are exempt from all our normal notability rules, and my annoyance at the pro-sports double standards on Wikipedia may have come across there.—S Marshall T/C 17:30, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Cheryl L. Clark and PROD
The article seems to me to be of too great an age for a PROD, but I have not dePRODed it on that basis, nor at all. While the thing she advocates is distasteful are we sure that is a reason for deletion? I doubt it would be deleted at AfD. FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 13:54, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- Hi Timtrent and thanks for contacting me. I'm not aware of any age limits on PROD. My reasons for PRODding that article are (1) It's an insufficiently sourced biography of a living person; and (2) It's promotional from the first revision. My distaste for shock therapy is incidental.—S Marshall T/C 17:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
- There are no actual limits, it's just my interpretation, formed over the years. To me the older an article the more 'deserving' it is of a full AfD. That is in part because the creating editor may be long gone, so PROD almost nukes it by accident when it might have been improved or deleted more... finally.
- I mentioned distaste because it was possible to interpret your rationale as not liking the underlying "thing". FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 17:46, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Beagh
If one is going to assume another editor is "entirely mistaken", then make sure you are entirely correct before making such an assertion. I do not know the level of expertise you have in the topic area of Irish toponymy or whether you have simply a fleeting fancy with it, however I have quite a high and respected level of expertise in the field and have contributed to written publications on local townlands. By all means become involved in discussions but tagging an article for deletion based on an entirely mistaken whim is not the way to conduct things. Mabuska (talk) 16:48, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
- If going to provide a closing statement make sure that it is also entirely correct please. Farms being bigger than townlands? The average size of a townland in Northern Ireland is 357 acres. The average size of an individual farm in Northern Ireland is around 35 acres. Whilst some townlands such as Acre McCricket are exceptionally small (4 acres), some are huge such as Slievedoo (4551 acres). The average in England for a farm is suppossedly 213 acres meaning the average townland in Northern Ireland is bigger than the average England farm. Mabuska (talk) 13:32, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I said that townlands are often smaller than individual farms, and they are.—S Marshall T/C 13:38, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
Irony of Wikipedia writers
Part I of this Note will provide a brief discussion of doping regulations prior to the 1999 formation of WADA. Part II will highlight some of the changes that WADA has made to the fight against doping. Part III will detail the recent case of Kicker Vencill, an American swimmer who tested positive for a steroid precursor in 2003. Part IV will use the Vencill case to discuss the inadequacies of current testing. Part V will provide a discussion of WADA's strict liability standard in light of the Vencill case. Finally, Part VI will present suggestions for improvement to the system. While doping is clearly an international problem, this Note will use examples and events from the United States.
— Foschi, Jessica K. (2006). "A Constant Battle: The Evolving Challenges in the International Fight Against Doping in Sport". Duke Journal of Comparative & International Law. 16 (2): 457–486.
- Kicker Vencill ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- List of doping cases in sport (V)
- World Anti-Doping Agency#World Anti-Doping Code
Sometimes it really does appear as though if something isn't a statistic to dump from a database, a mention in a film or a television program, or a news report to desperately shoe-horn into a biography, it doesn't get written about. The words "strict liability" do not even occur in our WADA article. (They're on page 9 of the 2017 Cambridge University Press guide to the Code.)
Uncle G (talk) 03:49, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- That's certainly ironic!Thanks for visiting my talk page, Uncle G. If you have time I'd like to solicit your view on writing Wikipedia articles that concern people who commit suicide. There's a long, rambling conversation about it above, under the heading "Disapproving tone", in which we fail horribly to converge on a coherent set of principles.—S Marshall T/C 10:06, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
- I have a couple of minor suggestions after a quick perusal of User:S Marshall/Essay3. You might do well to mention the fallacy of correlation implying causation. And if you are going to define your own terms you can mention that you aren't doing so in a vacuum.
It is commonly believed that suicide is a normal response to an abnormal situation. Scientists know that the opposite is true: suicide is an abnormal reaction to a normal situation.[1]
— van Heeringen, Kees (2018). "Introduction". The Neuroscience of Suicidal Behavior. Cambridge Fundamentals of Neuroscience in Psychology. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9781107148949.Suicidal behaviour is neither a normal response to the levels of stress experienced by most people, nor a standard consequence of major mental disorders[2]
— Rihmer, Zoltán; Rutz, Wolfgang (2021). "Early detection and management of suicidal patients in primary care". In Wasserman, Danuta (ed.). Oxford Textbook of Suicidology and Suicide Prevention (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/med/9780198834441.003.0052. ISBN 9780198834441.DHHS also provided a list of practices to avoid, […] Many media reports do not take the time to describe the complex relationship between bullying and suicide, and instead portray bullying as the sole cause of suicide. This may normalize suicide as a response to bullying, which could lead to suicide contagion in the wake of such reporting.[3]
— Bliss, Whitney; Pflum, Samantha; Sciacca, Laura; Goldblum, Peter (2014). "Bullying, Suicide, and the Media". In Goldblum, Peter; Espelage, Dorothy L.; Chu, Joyce; Bongar, Bruce (eds.). Youth Suicide and Bullying: Challenges and Strategies for Prevention and Intervention. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780199950713.
- I have a couple of minor suggestions after a quick perusal of User:S Marshall/Essay3. You might do well to mention the fallacy of correlation implying causation. And if you are going to define your own terms you can mention that you aren't doing so in a vacuum.
- ^ van Heeringen 2018, pp. xii–xiii.
- ^ Rihmer & Rutz 2021, p. 437.
- ^ Bliss et al. 2014, p. 287.
Uncle G (talk) 10:35, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
Deletion_review#Jessica_Foschi
If you had called me a liar during the original deletion discussion, I would have addressed it, probably with the level of detail I have added to the DR discussion. I therefore request that you review the sources in my DR comments, which were in the article during the AfD, and consider striking your comments [3] about The "keep" side
, i.e. they lied
as well as your assertion We have no source for any biographical information about her whatsoever.
If the AfD gets relisted, I would be happy to continue to discuss WP:BLP1E and the need to satisfy all of the criteria to support a deletion, but in the meantime, I would appreciate your attention to this. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 23:18, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
Why?
I've been following your ardency in this topic, and I just don't get it. I mean, I disagree with your interpretation of the facts, but I don't see you as someone who is in the habit of picking a hill to die on. Why this topic? I can guarantee you that the damage done to Ms. Foschi by the associated publicity is a) almost entirely in the past, and b) not dependent on Wikipedia. Jclemens (talk) 06:05, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- I think I'm stuck on the fact that this really is a case of BLP1E and it really is policy to delete it. I agree with everything Uncle G wrote and his criticisms of the keep side are in my view obviously correct; so I'm trying to help others to see what is iny view staring them in the face. I do need to drop it though. When some idiot rolls along, counts the words in bold and declares a victory for the keep side I'll just have to roll my eyes and bite my tongue.—S Marshall T/C 09:29, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- I always try and focus on the reasoning behind the policy, rather than the letter of the policy itself. I'm not unsympathetic to your position--but I think the underlying rationale would be 10 times stronger were Ms. Foschi, say, 22 instead of 42 (ish; dunno if she's had her birthday this year, and I don't think Wikipedia needs to know). It's kinda like how in the opening scene of the Veronica Mars movie, Jamie Lee Curtis' character is interviewing Mars about the sex tape that was released in Season 3 (10 years prior, in the fictional timeline) where she is very matter-of-fact about what happened and how it's behind her now. While the original event that traumatized Foschi as a teen is unmistakable, the action of someone who then goes to law school and publishes a journal article about the topic, regardless if WIALPI is arguably met, are not the actions of someone who is continually victimized by the publicity. That's the then-reality behind the Star Wars Kid precedent, which drove a lot of the policy thoughts in the late 2000's. Jclemens (talk) 18:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Ms Foschi isn't too old to need protecting from the entirely false accusations. She's a professional in a job that requires trust. Have you seen the unbelievably pathetic sources they're using to try to pretend she's notable for anything else? I would welcome your review of them.—S Marshall T/C 18:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- Which accusations would those be? The ones multiple decades old? The article as I read it basically says it appears to have been an adulteration of urine sample or beverage. And yes, I did review the article and its sources, which is why I have declined to offer an opinion: I truly can see both sides of this. Jclemens (talk) 04:49, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
- Ms Foschi isn't too old to need protecting from the entirely false accusations. She's a professional in a job that requires trust. Have you seen the unbelievably pathetic sources they're using to try to pretend she's notable for anything else? I would welcome your review of them.—S Marshall T/C 18:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
- I always try and focus on the reasoning behind the policy, rather than the letter of the policy itself. I'm not unsympathetic to your position--but I think the underlying rationale would be 10 times stronger were Ms. Foschi, say, 22 instead of 42 (ish; dunno if she's had her birthday this year, and I don't think Wikipedia needs to know). It's kinda like how in the opening scene of the Veronica Mars movie, Jamie Lee Curtis' character is interviewing Mars about the sex tape that was released in Season 3 (10 years prior, in the fictional timeline) where she is very matter-of-fact about what happened and how it's behind her now. While the original event that traumatized Foschi as a teen is unmistakable, the action of someone who then goes to law school and publishes a journal article about the topic, regardless if WIALPI is arguably met, are not the actions of someone who is continually victimized by the publicity. That's the then-reality behind the Star Wars Kid precedent, which drove a lot of the policy thoughts in the late 2000's. Jclemens (talk) 18:34, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Epilogue
By the way, I had never mentioned that my legal training and experience informed my view on the significance of the event as well as Foschi's substantial and well-documented role (and thus not WP:BLP1E due to #3), but I had perceived the complexity, duration, and novel nature of the proceedings, although articulating that without having the time or focus to fully analyze all of the sources during the wide-ranging discussions was a challenge. And then there is all of the reporting about her swimming career (undermining WP:BLP1E#1), as well as reporting and coverage later on that indicates she did not remain low-profile (undermining WP:BLP1E#2). Anyway, the Jessica Foschi article has been revised and hopefully addresses the concerns you raised. Beccaynr (talk) 04:18, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Spacing RfC
Hi there,
So that was my first RfC. My apologies in advance if I structured it poorly or carried it out incorrectly. Thank you very much for "closing" it. I just had one follow-up question. You mentioned at the end of your comments that, "In the discussion below, despite some articulate and well-argued dissent, the community reaches a weak consensus that what's called for here is guidance rather than regulation. Editors are invited to discuss how to phrase an appropriate edit to MOS:ACCESS that would explain the benefits of leaving a white line after headings for visually impaired people, and also the drawbacks for small-screen users. When the phrasing is agreed, the appropriate edit may be made." My question is regards to where we should now carry on further comment or conversation? And what exactly we are now to discuss for a new consensus. I just don't want to offend anyone further or to push "my side" inadvertently (as I was accused of doing from time to time by some editors). Much thanks again, sorry if I am asking you to re-articulate something you have already stated. ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 14:02, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, and thanks for visiting my talk page! I wasn't prescriptive about where the further discussion should happen, because it's best if you the involved editors decide, but if I was doing it, then the venue I would select is Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Accessibility. Open the discussion with a link to the closed RfC (you could copy/paste the permanent link to it from the very bottom entry in User:S Marshall/RfC close log if you wanted), and put a pointer to the new discussion on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style so people who contributed to the RfC know that there's a further chat going on. You don't need to start a further RfC about it, just a regular conversation.I understand you when you say you don't want to offend anyone but you'll find that many Wikipedians are thin-skinned and they'll sometimes take offence for very little reason. That was a polite, collegial and well-conducted debate, by RfC standards! I don't see any examples in that discussion where you behaved inappropriately or did anything wrong. Hope this helps and all the best—S Marshall T/C 15:21, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you very kindly for those words. I will see if I can kickstart a conversation then about this and bring closure to something I've been hoping to have as a suggestion (or option) at the very least for some time. That said, I will admit that I had not considered the point you raised about small screens and editors from countries where they might edit from a phone. I personally only ever edit from my computer, and so having an extra space (even just one) ender neath headings, makes it much easier for me to read. Thanks again. ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 12:56, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Lastly, I did just now take a stab at what you suggested in the access talk pages. See here, and if you think I worded anything poorly or anything of the sort, I will make changes accordingly. Much thanks again. ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 13:09, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- OK, I hope that goes smoothly! It was in fact not me who raised the issue of accessbility on small screens. That came from several editors, most clearly expressed by MB, Compassionate727 and Amakuru. I did give their concerns additional weight because I understood it as a systemic bias issue. But with my closer hat on I'm not allowed to introduce new thoughts, I'm only meant to summarize what the community has already said.—S Marshall T/C 17:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Lastly, I did just now take a stab at what you suggested in the access talk pages. See here, and if you think I worded anything poorly or anything of the sort, I will make changes accordingly. Much thanks again. ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 13:09, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you very kindly for those words. I will see if I can kickstart a conversation then about this and bring closure to something I've been hoping to have as a suggestion (or option) at the very least for some time. That said, I will admit that I had not considered the point you raised about small screens and editors from countries where they might edit from a phone. I personally only ever edit from my computer, and so having an extra space (even just one) ender neath headings, makes it much easier for me to read. Thanks again. ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 12:56, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Makes sense. Thank you for clarifying. ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 22:16, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, you've proposed a change on the talk page and got no response. I suggest you make a tentative change to the guidance with "See talk" as your edit summary.—S Marshall T/C 11:40, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- What do you call the "back end" or "when using source editor or visual editor"? What I am asking is...this is only for editors really, since this would not make any change for readers of articles etc. and so I am just thinking of how to officially word this "on the backend" in my lay speak. Then I'll take it from there. Thanks! ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 12:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Personally I'd say "the source editor" with a pipelink to Help:Wikitext.—S Marshall T/C 12:51, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Okay. Thank you for your help. I just submitted my edit on this, trying to keep balance of all parties interested and your closing comments in mind. Feel free to copy edit it for readability or anything. Hope I didn't eff it up too badly. But hey, BRD right!? ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 13:07, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Personally I'd say "the source editor" with a pipelink to Help:Wikitext.—S Marshall T/C 12:51, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- What do you call the "back end" or "when using source editor or visual editor"? What I am asking is...this is only for editors really, since this would not make any change for readers of articles etc. and so I am just thinking of how to officially word this "on the backend" in my lay speak. Then I'll take it from there. Thanks! ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 12:31, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Well, you've proposed a change on the talk page and got no response. I suggest you make a tentative change to the guidance with "See talk" as your edit summary.—S Marshall T/C 11:40, 8 April 2022 (UTC)
- Makes sense. Thank you for clarifying. ♥Th78blue (talk)♥ 22:16, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
M1 Group
Just a note that you appear to have breached 3RR on M1 Group. I noticed your warning on Kajouz's talk page. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:19, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
- It's problematic because I can't see any evidence that Kajouz is aware of talk pages at all, including his own. I think his motive is to correct error and he may have good grounds, for all I know. I don't really want him blocked at this stage if we can get him to talk to us.—S Marshall T/C 12:35, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Amnesty RFC
First off, thank you for closing the discussion. But could I ask you to add an entry to WP:RSP reflecting the close? Thanks, nableezy - 02:21, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- I did say in my close that I'd leave that to others... I'd like to spend my volunteering time clearing out old closure requests if that's OK?—S Marshall T/C 08:07, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
- Of course it is ok, nobody is obligated to do anything here, but it just makes it so somebody has to interpret your close to distill it in to an RSP entry. Ill ask on that talk page though. nableezy - 16:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
Italian Political Parties
Thank you for coming in to try to be reasonable just about at the time that I decided that it wasn't being useful to try to resolve that dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:50, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- I can see that you've tried really hard with that one.—S Marshall T/C 14:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Hi! I've sent you a mail. Sorry for templating you last time, I was in a rush between trains so I didn't read your talk page banner until after the fact — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 11:49, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
ANI notice
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding List of political parties in Italy. The thread is Disruption_of_consensus_building_process_on_List_of_political_parties_in_Italy. Thank you. — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 12:51, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
End of life care in the United Kingdom
Were you serious? I saw the smilie. The last discussion we had was about suicide. I guess my problem is that you say the topic interests you but I've mostly got drawn into discussing these things because of you and WAID rather than because I sit around contemplating death. Perhaps I will learn something interesting.
The problem from the start is the title. There is no United Kingdom health service and NICE is for England and Wales. So would it just cover E&W or would it include all the UK. If the latter, there could be OR issues as it may be that nobody else does that. -- Colin°Talk 21:09, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- You're right, it should be End of life care in England and Wales. My smiley was not sarcasm, but genuine enthusiasm for doing some writing!—S Marshall T/C 21:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- A few quick notes in User:S Marshall/Sandbox.—S Marshall T/C 12:35, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
June 2022 Good Article Nominations backlog drive
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Nice work
I've seen your comments a few times in recent months in different places and they are always sensible, logical, and good at separating fact from emotion. Thanks for being a sensible head, I appreciate it. CT55555 (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
ANI mention
fyi, I mentioned you, not by name, but in your capacity as the closer of the Attack on HMS Invincible AfD, in a comment I made in a pending ANI discussion. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 03:29, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
Arbcom evidence
Do you want the content of Reginald V. Smith? Happy to mail it to you. —Cryptic 17:24, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, thanks Cryptic. Wouldn't say no!—S Marshall T/C 21:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- {{YGM}}. —Cryptic 21:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. It all seems very much as I believed when I couldn't see it.—S Marshall T/C 21:53, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
- {{YGM}}. —Cryptic 21:52, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Extension granted
The drafting arbs have agreed to an extension of 1,000 words should you wish to present more evidence. This is obviously somewhat less than you had asked (500/party) but we hope will be sufficient to make your major points. Barkeep49 (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
"Coat of arms of Harrow" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Coat of arms of Harrow and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 June 23#Coat of arms of Harrow until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. I'm notifying you as a participant in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coat of arms of Harrow. A7V2 (talk) 00:06, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Typo?
Hey, did you mean to link one my edits here (Canvassing #2)? –dlthewave ☎ 12:56, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Hi! No, I didn't. Fixed now! All the best—S Marshall T/C 17:12, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Hey, did you mean to link one of my edits here? Pretty sure you want Special:Permalink, not Special:Diff - the latter will sometimes only show the diff itself, not the entire page content, depending on what you have set in preferences. —Cryptic 17:26, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Doh, you're right. Fixed now.—S Marshall T/C 22:56, 1 July 2022 (UTC)