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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.
This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.
Please make your request in the appropriate section:
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Requests for arbitration
Requests for clarification and amendment
Amendment request: Tea Party movement
Initiated by Mhawk10 at 04:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Mhawk10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- My request is that a motion be made to strike the clause.
Statement by Mhawk10
The current clause states should any editor subject to a discretionary sanction under this decision violate the terms of the sanction, then further sanctions may be imposed as appropriate pursuant to the discretionary sanction remedy
. There do not appear to be any active discretionary sanctions in this area based upon the arbitration enforcement logs (2013, 2014, 2015). Since the discretionary sanctions have been superseded by WP:AP2, and decision sanctions are distinguished from discretionary sanctions by the text of the case, this is a zombie clause that's still in force but can never be used. A motion to strike this zombie clause would help to complete the clean-up from when this got merged with AP2. — Ⓜ️hawk10 (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Tea Party movement: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Tea Party movement: Arbitrator views and discussion
- If some arb wants to draft it I'll support it, but I also don't think any change is needed. Enforcement is now done through AP2 and the Tea Party DS were superseded into that. As such there is no Tea Party DS to be enforced and so the enforcement language is moot. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- I concur with Barkeep49; the motion to accept AP2 included a focus "on a broad topic and will examine allegations ... [including] the Tea Party Movement topic", and the Tea Party DS is not listed in the DS awareness codes. It might not have been formally superseded by Remedy in the case or an ARCA motion -- and if the motion to open the case had not specifically included the Tea Party I might be more in agreement -- but it seems fairly clear that any Tea Party-related sanctions are part of AP2 DS now. Primefac (talk) 20:43, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- While I am generally in favor of removing old or outdated sanctions, removing this one doesn't really change anything. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:08, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
Motions
Requests for enforcement
Mhorg
There are two components here. Please note, a consensus is NOT required for any of these actions as WP:AE is not a consensus board; it allows unilateral action. First. Mhorg is indefinitely topic banned from Lyudmyla Denisova, very broadly construed. There is a fairly clear consensus that BLP violations took place and there is too much bias for Mhorg to edit this topic in a neutral fashion. This means you need to completely avoid this person and any section of an article that even incidentally mentions her. This also means you may not discuss her, mention her, or refer to her, in any way. Breaching this will likely result in blocks and/or wider topic bans. Second, there will be a formal logged warning for the entire subject area "Eastern Europe". This is a bit against my better judgement, as I think an indef topic ban is the better way to go, but this formal warning should be seen as an absolute last chance. Any violations of policy in this area, no matter how minor, will be justification for any admin to indefinitely topic ban you from the entire area, without requiring a report at WP:AE. I would suggest you self-impose a 1RR restriction and use the talk page more before editing. It is my hope you will get the message and find a way to be less biased in your editing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:40, 29 June 2022 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Mhorg
After talking with Mhorg, for example here, I believe that Mhorg should be topic banned from all BLP pages. If he does not like the person, he just selects the most damaging quotes about him or her from various sources and throws them on the page, and this is not only Denisova [17],[[18]]. My very best wishes (talk) 04:12, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Discussion concerning MhorgStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by MhorgDear colleagues, unfortunately I have to defend myself against the slanders that are part of a WP:Battleground mentality that MVBW has never definitively abandoned, such as when years ago (he was called User:Biophys) was part of a political 'battle squad' that coordinated off-wiki[65] with a mailing list to fight his 'enemies'. This AE request comes after MVBW:
I ask you for the opportunity to exceed 500 words so that I can fully defend myself against this user, who has practically harassed me on every possible occasion in recent days: Denisova - (list of the sourced accusations against her:[89])
Other
Additional comments
Answer to TyrelBurden
Answer to Dennis Brown
I hope with all my heart that other users who have had a bad experience with MVBW will intervene in this AE request.
Statement by Paul SiebertFirst of all, let me quote these words Below, I am going to demonstrate that these MVBW's words perfectly describe his own behaviour. Thus, the evidence #6 is the talk page post, where Mhorg says that this type information should NOT be added to the article. IMO the only idea this evidence demonstrates is that MVBW is following the above described tactics in an attempt to eat up the defendant's 500 words limit and to link his name with highly discredited "Russia Today". Next, the evidence #5. The ostensibly "highly damaging claim" was supported by three reliable sources, the Guardian article and two books, each of which have been widely cited by peers ([101], [102]), so each of them are without any doubts RS. In contrast, the text removed by Mhorg was supported by Ulmand, who writes:
In other words, the text removed by Mhorg contained a very selectively cited source (Umland), whose main idea was totally misinterpreted. That means, Mhorg just fixed a blatant misinterpretation of the good source (Umland), thereby improving the artilce. I can perform the same analysis of other evidences, but the 500 word limit does not allow me to do that. I would like to to point out the following. Dennis Brown, hasn't specified which sources he looked at, so it is hard to me to comment on concrete examples of misinterpretation. However, it is necessary to discriminate between the text written by Mhorg and the text that was written by others and restored by Mhorg. Clearly, it is a big difference between non-critical restoration of someone else's wrong text and writing misinterpretations by themselves. I suggest to look more carefully on the diffs and to verify who exactly wrote each piece of the problematic text, who deserves a real topic ban, and who needs just a warning. Similarly, regarding the evidence #2, the statement added by Mhorg seems quite relevant. The style of each edit is uniform: to the text saying that Denisova made a clam X, Mhorg adds that some politicians criticized Denisova for that claim. This criticism refers to the claim made by Denisova, and that claim is the very same claim that is presented in each of those articles. How can that be seen as "irrelevant"? Frankly, I strongly recommend admins to carefully examine other evidences presented by MVBW, for virtually every statement made by this user may be problematic. As an example, I can provide this recent diff: [103] this user has removed three good sources, that were added by Mhorg previously [104]. MVBW claims these sources were SPS, but that is a lie: one source is a conference paper authored by an expert in the field, another one is a peer-reviewed publication cited 33 times, and the last one is the book cited 108 times. By removing this text, MVBW removed information about murder of Jews and of gentile 3000 civilian during WWII. Denial of the participation of some nationals in the Holocaust is considered as one of the forms of the Holocaust denial. Ironically, that was represented as an attempt to improve the Holocaust related article. In connection to that, I have a question: if relatively minor misinterpretations made (or ostensibly made) by Mhorg, deserve a topic ban, what should be an adequate reaction on MVBW's misleading statements and removal of the information about the Holocaust made under deceptive edit summaries? I fully understand that accusations of misbehaviour that lack evidences may be considered as a personal attack, and I declare that I do have enough evidences that support my general claim about MVBW's behaviour. I am ready to present them upon a request, but I cannot do that here, for they do not fit the 500 word limit. In summary, I strongly suggest BOOMERANG.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:28, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by TylerBurdenI have never commented on this page, but everything I have seen from Mhorg lines up with the concern that there is too much political motivation and bias at play with their edits. Mhorg was a strong advocate of the Azov Regiment being described in Wikivoice as a ″Neo-Nazi″ battalion(at the time, now called regiment) despite confliction amongst reliable sources which in my brief time on this site was the biggest and most blatant WP:NPOV mess I have seen. They would use questionable at best tactics such as striking an RFC option that unrelated people had voiced support for because the OP had been blocked afterwards to support this cause. They owed up to it on their talk page when it was called out, which is fair enough, but one only needs to take a look at their edit history to see that they spend most of their time on the site linking Ukranians with Nazism and other general anti-Ukranian POV edits. This would be one thing if they also made edits from the other perspective, but they don't. People who get in their way are accused of whitewashing 1 2. I agree that there is too much bias with this editor, and that they have an obvious POV that they are pushing above all others, Wikipedia is meant to be built on WP:NPOV and people like this are tearing that pillar down. Support topic ban. --TylerBurden (talk) 09:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by SelfstudierNormally I don't edit in this area, I accidentally ended up involved in the Azov battalion saga and interacting with some of the editors there. Mhorg has very forthright opinions but from my limited experience, he is not alone in that, there are those with equally strong opinions on the other side of the (Ukranian) fence, so to speak, things get heated from time to time. A warning to dial it back is certainly in order, any repetition, go to jail, do not pass go. Selfstudier (talk) 10:38, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by PravegaTyler Burden's claim that Mhorg should be topic banned because he wanted to retain status quo on Azov Regiment by retaining "neo-nazi" in wikivoice is absurd. Even the RfC closure noted that such a view "received the most !votes, both in favor and against it".[105] What I have seen until now is that Mhorg is in fact doing a great job with his editing and MVBW is causing disruption. I am describing all of that with proper diffs about the disputes where both MVBW and Mhorg were involved very recently. 1. A very good example of POV pushing, WP:IDHT and WP:STONEWALLING by MVBW is on display at Talk:Alexei Navalny#Proposed addition to "Political position" section where he is trying to reject reliably sourced content without citing a policy-based reason. After he failed to justify his content removal, he asks "Why discuss it now?" 2. MVBW made the above responses only after he failed to turn BLPN against his opponents at Talk:Alexei Navalny. On BLPN he brings the issue as if editors were committing BLP violation and he is misrepresenting me, mhorg, and other editors to be engaging in an " 3. MVBW's unnecessary edit warring to whitewash Alexie Navalny which is on 1RR.[106][107][108][109][110][111][112][113][114] MVBW is falsely claiming to have "consensus" by citing an RfC that was closed for being impractical with regards to the fate of the content. Only 2 users: MVBW and Alaexis are opposed to the content while 5 other editors (including this one) are in support and/or have no issue.[115] 4. Again, false claims of BLP violation on Alexei Navalny by MVBW. No users could find any "BLP violation" and MVBW after seeing lots of opposition himself tries to wiggle out by saying " 5. MVBW cites 100% correct edits by Mhorg above about Sparta Battalion (Mhorg was following WP:BRD to remove fake news promoting sources per consensus) but MVBW omits that he was violating WP:BLP by adding fake news sources (meawww) getting their information from WP:DAILYMAIL to Vladimir Zhoga on that same day by falsely claiming him to be a Nazi.[117] 6. Edit warring at Azov Regiment by trying a new edit every time.[118][119] 7. Back-to-back removal of highly acclaimed scholars such as Richard Sakwa, Stephen F. Cohen on Far-right politics in Ukraine and falsely claiming to have consensus on talk page to remove long-standing content.[120][121][122] In all of the above disputes, Mhorg is the one complying with WP:BRD and WP:CON, while MVWB is engaging in clear misrepresentation of sources, rampant edit warring against consensus, false claims of gaining consensus, WP:IDHT and battleground mentality. I am also citing WP:CIR with regards to MVWB due to claims of BLP violation when none exists. So Dennis Brown, if anyone deserves a topic ban then that is MVWB for disruptive editing and making this report only to get rid of a far more sensible opponent in a content dispute.❯❯❯Pravega g=9.8 15:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC) Statement by Gitz6666With regard to MVBW's point N° 2, "placing negative claims about Denisova to multiple pages where such claims do not belong", I beg to disagree. I think that here Mhorg was trying to address a real issue of verifiability which was not created by them. Statement by François RobereI'm not involved in the TA, but am familiar with the participants from a related one. A few days ago Mhorg approached me to evaluate a few sources that the filer claimed were SPS;[123] I determined that they were not. They similarly approached Paul Siebert, who came to the same conclusion. Relying on Siebert's analysis and Mhorg's explanations, it does not seem to me that they have acted substantially different from many other opinionated editors who are not sanctioned by broad T-bans. I do not condone POV-pushing of any kind, but it should be said in Mhorg's defense that they have followed content guidelines, repeatedly sought outside input, have not broken 1RR or 3RR, and have not tried to circumvent consensus. If that's the new standard for banning editors, then I've a long list of them I'd like this panel to meet. François Robere (talk) 14:34, 26 June 2022 (UTC) Statement by LevivichSorry to be that guy again, guys, but... @Drmies: I think you're WP:INVOLVED here due to edits like this (partially reverted by Mhorg) and !voting/commenting in an AFD. I don't think an admin can have a content dispute with an editor and then !vote to topic-ban that editor at AE. You should be commenting "above the line" here, in the involved section. @Dennis Brown: I think you owe Mhorg an answer to their questions about what, exactly, is the basis for your wanting a topic ban. Saying, as you did below, I'm not saying this report doesn't have merit at all, by the way, but it should be processed fairly, and I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle, as usual. Levivich[block] 16:21, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
BTW, I noticed that when Drmies incorrectly claimed that a source was self-published when it wasn't, nobody accused Drmies of "misrepresenting a source", because it was an innocent mistake. Just food for thought. Levivich[block] 01:35, 27 June 2022 (UTC) @MVBW: As I said, I am not suggesting this report is without merit. I'm only suggesting Drmies is involved (and Dennis should specify what he's referring to when he says he checked and Mhorg misrepresented sources). I'm not suggesting that Mhorg didn't misrepresent sources... but there's a little bit of a mix here. For example, Drmies brought up using a self-published source, and it's not self-published, it's important we're clear that this is not an example of misrepresenting a source or being disruptive. Sure there are other examples (and, indeed, "#5" is just one among several examples), but the reviewing admin should be specific about why they're TBANing someone. (And they should do it without violating WP:INVOLVED.) Levivich[block] 01:52, 27 June 2022 (UTC) Statement by Volunteer MarekApparently this is something that needs to be pointed out explicitly: there's a HUUUGGGEEE difference between the statement "person X's comments have not been verified" (what the sources say in this case) and "person X is spreading lies" (what Mhorg kept writing [124] [125]) The latter one is a 100% crystal clear BLPVIO and it's noteworthy that Mhorg kept making these kinds of statements even after it was repeatedly pointed out to them these were BLPVBIOs [126]. That actually makes this even more than just WP:BLP vio but also WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and WP:NOTHERE. I hope that address Francois Robere's pretty strange assertion that, quote, "it should be said in Mhorg's defense that they have followed content guidelines". Obviously they DID NOT follow content guidelines or policies, particularly BLP, but willfully violated them despite multiple warnings. BTW, if I'm not mistaken these two diffs of BLPvios [127] and [128] are NOT in MVBWs report and so are ADDITIONAL evidence of problems with Mhorg, on top of the evidence presented by MVBW. Volunteer Marek 23:15, 26 June 2022 (UTC) Statement by ElinrubyI noticed this thread after someone suggested at the related complaint by Gitz6666 against Volunteer Marek that those matters should be brought here, and, if I understood correctly, as a boomerang. When I came here to see if they had, I found this thread, which is, as I mentioned, related. I have also edited some of these topics and while I am very preoccupied in real life, I have given a fair amount of thought to Mhorg. I first encountered him at the very toxic Azov Battalion page, where I attempted to remedy the very misleading references for calling the group “neo-Nazi” in Wikivoice. [129] (also see Police in Belarus as an authority on Ukrainian military further down the same archive page). I have carefully read the complaint above and these misleading references do not appear to have been mentioned here yet. Mhorg was, quite recently, reverting to reinstate a quite similar article in The Nation which also refers, once only, to the unit as Neo-Nazi, in an article about a line item in the US military budget. Yes, there was an RfC about the appellation, about which much could be said, but my point is here and now is that I think that Mhorg sincerely believes that if a publication is on the list of Perennial Sources, and contains the words “Neo-Nazi” that this is proof of his point. This is my best attempt at AGF, and it may in fact be accurate. He frequently notes in his edit summaries that a source is on this list. I gave up trying to improve the references at Azov Battalion after I featured in a lengthy thread at ANI in which I was accused of many things. I do not claim to have been altogether blameless —I should have translated off-wiki, for one thing, but I usually don’t. But then the topics of my translations are not usually so toxic. And yes I probably was a bit scathing. Let’s just say the ANI complaint came to nothing and I would prefer not to express my opinion of the idea that multiple posts at RSN about multiple bad references is “forum shopping”. I only mention this in fairness, because Mhorg did say things about me there that I believe to have been untrue. However, I am trying very hard here to be fair and factual. I do not think that Mhorg sees his own bias, and it is true that he does seem to make an effort to be collaborative. Perhaps with the wrong people? I am unsure. He seems to sincerely believe in the correctness of his actions, and says above that he still believes that Denisova should have her own personal Controversies section. He is here in part because of BLP concerns with his edit summaries, yet was counseled about this almost a year ago here Tomasz Greniuch at RSN and argued (tenaciously) with Girth Summit who was trying to explain that having been photographed in his youth doing a Nazi salute is not sufficient reason to remove everything the man has written as a source, and in particular that calling him a neo-Nazi in an edit summary is a BLP violation. And yet he persisted: In Roman Protasevich [130]* he argues (tenaciously) for inclusion of a YouTube source of a possibly forced confession
In [131] — another article I have never touched afaik —although it the article itself is not a BLP, MVBW raises legitimate BLP concerns. Azov: Where to begin. The entire article needs massive admin attention. Perhaps they are all Neo-Nazis indeed. This should however be sourced. Mhorg has been part of the POV: [132] deleted link between neo-Nazi claim and its prominence in Russian disinformation. [133] “falsely justifying” -> “justifying” and “advertisement” -> “propaganda”. I think Dennis Brown is correct in his assessment. I do not think a topic ban should be limited to Denisova however. Perhaps BLPs in general. I do not think he understands libel. Language issues are part of the problem but these problems are serious and he is not that new an editor. Elinruby (talk) 09:26, 27 June 2022 (UTC) Statement by Drmies
Result concerning Mhorg
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GizzyCatBella
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning GizzyCatBella
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Szmenderowiecki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- GizzyCatBella (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- WP:APLRS
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 15 June 2022 - attempt to relitigate a previous APLRS-related closure;
- 15 June 2022 - further insisting on overturning that closure;
- 23 June 2022 - threat to remove + further insistence on non-reliability of previously-considered reliable source;
- 23 June 2022 - more of the same; likely misunderstanding of underlying APLRS remedy;
- 23 June 2022 - going again;
- 23 June 2022 - and again;
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Previously blocked as a discretionary sanction for conduct in the area of conflict, see the block log linked to above: [134] - two blocks (both self-reverted, one technical) in August 2021
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- The Warsaw concentration camp returns again to the Arbitration Committee.
- On 2 November 2021, GizzyCatBella challenged the usage of this source. GizzyCatBella properly challenged that article since it was non-scholarly and the user provided some sort of rationale other than the point of non-scholarship (in that case, the participation of banned Icewhiz). Acting on this challenge and given my interest in making that article as comprehensive as possible, I started what proved to be an acrimonious RfC three days later that later escalated to ArbCom. The RfC ultimately was closed with the following relevant point, that there is
consensus that the Haaretz article used as a source for the footnote is reliable and, as such, WP:APLRS is satisfied.
- In June, Jens Lallensack, who was not involved into any of the prior discussions, started the GA article review. GizzyCatBella stated in diff 1 that they don't want the reference to appear in there, without any qualifiers, if that was to be a GA, but ignored the request to refer the RfC to review. No policy I am aware of allows some sources for inferior articles but disallows for the others. The user repeatedly showed their will to challenge the closure and threatened to disregard it by removing the source in question (diff 3). They claim that the RfC closure said that since it is reliable as used in a footnote, it is not reliable anywhere else (likely due to the user's own opinion on it as unreliable), and suggested to go with an ArbCom clarification, or else challenge it again, which would be very likely burdensome for the community. [Another usage of that source is quoting from Jan Grabowski and Havi Dreifuss, both subject-matter scholars]. The user repeatedly said that
multiple other sources available
for the same content, but provided none to back up their point. The user seems generally to believe that whatever was not written by a historian is unreliable for the topic, which is not what APLRS says. - GizzyCatBella additionally threatened to challenge two videos from YouTube, one being a France24 report, and the other being an Israeli TV interview with Gideon Greif, a subject-matter expert on the Holocaust, without stating any problem other than being YouTube videos (WP:SQSAVOID obliges the reverts have a "clear substantive explanation", which the user avoided to share so far despite being asked to do so).
- I ask the admins to instruct the user to comply with the closure, order the editor to stop abusing APLRS as a way to automatically remove any reference without explanation, and otherwise stop the uncooperative and combattive behaviour.
- I request 200 more words for replies. TonyBallioni is pinged as the administrator imposing discretionary sanctions. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- GizzyCatBella, this board is in the category of "dispute resolution" boards for a reason.
- Also, given the very long discussion about that source (and several others you have engaged in, i.a. over the meaning of the word "hoax" in Wikipedia), obviously I've had enough of that once I've been that shitshow, and I struggle to understand why others haven't and want to remind us of that waste of editor resources over and over again.
- My very best wishes, exclude a source for what reason? Reliability? The RfC said we were over it. DUEness? Also over it. Narrative of a banned Wikipedian? Well, it is there, no denial, but that objection was also overruled anyway as we don't cite it. I have no complaints about civility here, but repeating the same arguments in different venues, when the editor knows that these were overruled, and then trying to argue the RfC closure is not what (most) people think it is due to a grammatical/technical quirk, is disruptive. And even if we disregard all that, the editor knows that most people agreed to disagree anyway, so why raise this issue again? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- GizzyCatBella, the problem here is not the source itself, it is your behaviour with relation to that close, which was clarified to mean what it means by plain reading of that source (thanks for confirming that, Isabelle). The enforcement request is about compliance with the RfC, it is not about the source, for which this venue is not appropriate. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:44, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- GizzyCatBella, I used this one. I downloaded the audio track of that YouTube video and then split it into 1-min intervals. Then I pasted whatever Hebrew text was generated into Google Translate and saw the English translation (YouTube does not automatically generate captions for Hebrew). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:49, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- GizzyCatBella, the problem here is not the source itself, it is your behaviour with relation to that close, which was clarified to mean what it means by plain reading of that source (thanks for confirming that, Isabelle). The enforcement request is about compliance with the RfC, it is not about the source, for which this venue is not appropriate. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:44, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [135]
Discussion concerning GizzyCatBella
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by GizzyCatBella
I'll address the issue as soon as I can (busy for most of the day) as there are numerous inaccuracies here such as number 3 (just a quick example for now) - a threat to remove --> Where do I say that I'll remove or where is the threat of me removing anything from the article Szmenderowiecki?
Meantime, please read the entire conversation and (among other things) notice this comment --> [136] were the filer disrespectfully insinuated that my good faith involvement in GA review is to overturn the RfC, which is untrue, that is not my intension at all. Also Szmederowiecki, why didn't you ask for a wider input from our community, as I suggested, instead of accusing me of acting in bad faith? You came here to resolve the disagreement? You know that this might be a tremendous unnecessary time sink, right? You are requesting the AE to resolve that debate instead of asking the community for consensus? What's up with that Szmenderowiecki? - GizzyCatBella🍁 17:01, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Wugapodes - Sorry, I’m still busy, just scanning here. So the article with such troubled history could be freely used directly, anywhere in such uneasy toopic area? I understood the closing of RfC completaly different. (Use ok as a source for a footnote - only in this particular article) I’m not arguing with your evaluation, looks like you're skilled in Linguistics (judging by your front page also), and English is my second language, but I'm a little stunned.. Should we ask the closing editor for clarification or study the RfC and clarify it ourselves elsewhere? GizzyCatBella🍁 22:09, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Szmenderowiecki - So if you (quoting you)
had enough of that once I've been that shits how
why on earth it’s so important to you to maintain that particular source in the body of the article, to the point that you came here with this dishonest (not only my opinion) report? What it’s more important to you Szmenderowiecki? Maintaining the potentially troubled source in the body (instead of the footnote - no objections here) that has a prospect to destabilize the article in the future or passing the article into the GA status? Explain that to me, please? GizzyCatBella🍁 23:41, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Szmenderowiecki - So if you (quoting you)
@Isabelle Belato Thank you for clarification Isabelle - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:04, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Recent conversation with the filer on the talk page of user Deborahjay preserved here for the record -->[137] (Initial Diff in case it gets archived) - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:07, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- What is to be uncovered in the conversation linked above:
- A) - On November 14, 2021 Szmenderowiecki enters the video TV interview with Gideon Greif, in Hebrew language, and uses it to reference information in Warsaw Concentration Camp article.
- B) - Two days after this filing, on June 25, 2022, Szmenderowiecki asks for translation of the mentioned video declaring they don't speak Hebrew.
- Findings:
- Szmenderowiecki enters the source (video) into the article, they later argue (numerous times) to keep They used the source as an example while writing this report (quote from his above filing):
GizzyCatBella additionally threatened to challenge two videos from YouTube, one being a France24 report, and the other being an Israeli TV interview with Gideon Greif, a subject-matter expert on the Holocaust, without stating any problem other than being YouTube videos.
- Conclusion (related to this particular AE report only):
- Szmenderowiecki enters unverified YouTube video, they later state they don't understand, into the article and uses it to reference information. - GizzyCatBella🍁 05:19, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
Notice the subtitles/closed captions button in the above discussed video -->[138] Click CC button below the video - it says Subtitles/closed captions unavailable.
- Question. What voice recognition software are you referring to in your remark here Szmenderowiecki? - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Szmenderowiecki this should work just fine. I’ll confirm later if necessary. For now, that’s all from me. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:40, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
- Haaretz's article date is October 4, 2019
- Video upload time to YouTube is October 6, 2019
Statement by Volunteer Marek
Let me get this straight. User:Szmenderowiecki filed a WP:AE report because… someone disagreed with them (civility, politely) in a discussion??? Every single one of these diffs is a comment. Not article edits, not anything even resembling incivility, nothing. I don’t even understand what policy these are supposed to violate. This seems to boil down to “how dare you have an opinion different from mine!!!!”
I mean, I’ve seen some ridiculously spurious WP:AE reports over the years but this has got to be some kind of record for spuriousness..es..esses(?)
Just ban Szmenderowiecki from WP:AE and tell them to quit wasting people’s time. Volunteer Marek 19:19, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by My very best wishes
A contributor (GizzyCatBella) can reasonably believe that a source should be removed from a page if we want this page to become a Good Article, regardless to any previous RfCs. This is not an unreasonable opinion because during the RfC a number of other contributors argued that the page would be better off without this reference. If we simply remove the disputed ref, the article will remain just as good (GA), as it is. End of story. Why bring this here? Perhaps there are some reasons, but I do not understand them. My very best wishes (talk) 20:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Wugapodes. Yes, I see it: Requests to enforce the discretionary sanctions or sourcing restrictions should be posted to the arbitration enforcement noticeboard (AE) for evaluation by uninvolved administrators. However, I do not see how anyone (like GizzyCatBella) arguing to exclude a source (an article in Haaretz) from a page to make it a Good Article might be viewed by anyone as a violator of sourcing requirements. Even if it was a reference satisfying the requirements by Arbcom, one can always argue to exclude it for whatever good reason. This is not a violation of any remedy by Arbcom. Only someone arguing to include an insufficiently good reference on talk (like Szmenderowiecki) might be viewed as a potential rather than an actual violator. My very best wishes (talk) 22:33, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Isabelle
It seems like my poor domain of the English language has finally come to haunt me. Firstly, I have no opinion on this particular matter as it relates to GizzyCatBella, and am here just to clarify any misunderstandings related to this close. Wugapodes is correct in their assessment that my findings were that the article is reliable, generally speaking. While the discussion was focused entirely on the source as it related to the information found as a footnote, participants agreed that it was reliable, meaning that if that same information was to be added to the body of an article, it would still be reliable and usable (although I find it hard the community would find that WP:DUE). I hope this answers any questions. Feel free to ping me if any further comments are necessary. Isabelle 🏳🌈 01:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Aquillion
I think that the RFC was clear, but that bringing up objections again in a WP:GA is fair (though I wouldn't have gone on as long as GizzyCatBella did for risk of BLUDGEONING an already-settled point.) WP:CCC applies - people are allowed to dissent from or disagree with previous RFCs, and even suggest that they be overturned or ignored - and contrary to what was said in that discussion it's not really required to request a close review. Doing so too often would be WP:BLUDGEON / WP:DEADHORSE behavior, but a GA nomination is a specific one-time thing where every significant concern over the article is supposed to be gone over, so I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to note, in that context, that they still think it's a problem, regardless of the previous RFC... even if such an objection is unlikely to go anywhere. And it's also at least not unreasonable to suggest that the standard for a GA is higher, which can lead to previous discussions being reconsidered (even if I think it was vanishingly unlikely in this case.) --Aquillion (talk) 20:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning GizzyCatBella
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- It's pretty clear to me that the RfC found the source was generally reliable. It says explicitly
the argument against the source's reliability is not a strong one
, so with that context I struggle to see whythe Haaretz article used as a source for the footnote is reliable and, as such, WP:APLRS is satisfied
should be read to mean it's only reliable for that footnote and nothing else like GizzyCatBella claims in the third diff. I think the phrase "used as a source for the footnote" is a restrictive relative clause that is used to specify which source is being discussed specifically. The ambiguity comes from the omission of the relative pronoun (common for restrictive clauses in English). So there are two potential readings depending on what relative pronoun you use to fill in that gap: "the Haaretz article [which is] used as a source..." or "the Haaretz article [when] used as a source...". Given that we list the source as "generally reliable in its areas of expertise" and the closer saidthe argument against the source's reliability is not a strong one
, I think the interpretation is clearly "which" not "when". I can see how an editor could, in good faith, misunderstand that given the ambiguity, so I don't think there's any need for AE to do anything beyond clarify that. — Wug·a·po·des 21:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)- @My very best wishes: The arbitration committee explicitly told editors to bring issues like this to AE. See clause 4 of that motion. — Wug·a·po·des 21:33, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- @GizzyCatBella: Sure, I've asked the closer for her comment. I think it's ambiguous even if your first language were English, so it's probably best we get some clarity to avoid future misunderstandings. — Wug·a·po·des 23:24, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
- Pace Wugapodes I think this is swatting at a fly with a table saw. No, I do not believe that this is what arbitration is for--first of all because it is a relatively small content matter, and second because IMO arbitration should be reserved for disputes that cannot be handled in any other matter, and I do not see that that stage has been reached already. Drmies (talk) 17:14, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
Armatura
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Armatura
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- MJL (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 18:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Armatura (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Armenia-Azerbaijan 2
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 12 June 2022 Armatura makes the absurd claim that he can't be reverted and threatens to report another editor (Golden) for their
previous history of disregarding Wikipedia policies
. I am not exaggerating here. Armatura explicitly makes the claim that WP:DONTREVERT is a policy.
I got asked by Golden to help figure out how to respond to Armatura here and determine where Golden might've misstepped (at least that's how I read the message). Instead, I decide to jump in and explain that (A) Armatura seems to gravely misunderstand the basic nature of Wikipedia's policies (WP:NOTCOMPULSORY, WP:OWNBEHAVIOR, etc.) (B) I don't like Armatura threatened to report a user over this incredibly minor content dispute (WP:BATTLEGROUND/WP:CIR). - 13 June 2022 Armatura responds by saying I'm not fit to mediate conflicts in AA2 (which is an absurd claim and completely unrelated to anything I said or was trying to do) and proceeds to explain how I fall short of his criteria. Needless to say, Armatura completely misses the point. (WP:IDHT)
- 14 June 2022 Skipping forward a bit, after our conversation Armatura decides to vague post about me to the Teahouse where Armatura asks
What does a third person do, if a mentor appears to be abusing their role and harassing a third person in order to protect their protege?
(For context, I'm Golden's mentor of sorts.) (WP:HARASS/WP:BATTLEGROUND) - 18-20 June 2022 Armatura comes to my talk page to complain about Golden. I explain I don't see any issues with Golden's response. Armatura offers me reading material about
protegee-mentor relationships
which I didn't ask for. I respond confronting Armatura with what he said about me at the Teahouse and Rosguill's talk page. Armatura denies he was talking about me (just blatantly lying at that point). (WP:CIV) - 28 June 2022 A user (Abrvagl) brings forward pretty basic response to the concerns Armatura copy/pasted at WP:BLP/N and Talk:2020 Ghazanchetsots Cathedral shelling. There is so much going on with how Armatura replied in that diff. He questions how a user took
only
6 months to learn Wikipedia's policies and improve their English. Then he responds by saying Abrvagl was beingpassive aggressive I-am-not-saying-anything-but-kind-of-openly-implying-things-nonetheless
but says he won't respond that way (despite the fact he just did) while ignoring literally everything that user had to say to him. (WP:IDHT/WP:BATTLEGROUND)
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- 23 January 2021 A since-overturned IBAN with Solavirum (talk · contribs)
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Placed a {{Ds/aware}} template for the area of conflict on their own talk page. [139] (It's not on the talk page, but WP:NOTBURO applies here folks.)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Armatura is the type of person to post about an Azeribaijani mailing list of more than 10 years ago on ruwiki and claim there are current enwiki editors still actively involved in offwiki coordination.
Armatura is the type of person to out a minor onwiki by stalking their social media ([140]).
It's completely unrelated to the AA2-topic area, but Armatura's article George Klein (physician) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was a copyvio that had to be cleaned up by Diannaa. (For the record, this edit was copyvio as well and is still up.) A user of more than 15 years experience should not need WP:COPYVIO explained to them.
My conclusion? Competence is required. Nothing less than a topic-ban for AA2 and a final warning about the copyvio or an indef block as an admin action would be sufficient for him here. –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 18:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown: I absolutely considered adding the template, but it would've been incredibly WP:POINTy. The point of the template is to ensure the person knows about the sanctions. What would be the point for someone who has {{ds/aware}} on their user page? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 02:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Done.
Discussion concerning Armatura
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Armatura
Thanks for opening this discussion, MJL. I will go one by one through the points you have raised.
- Armatura claims he can't be reverted. You are referring to this. I didn't say I cannot be reverted, but I questioned why and based on what I was reverted, and I see a problem in using reverting as method of operation (I rarely use it).
- Armatura claims that WP:DONTREVERT is a policy. I am yet to learn the pragamtic difference between policy, guidelines, and essays on Wikipedia by heart, that is true. I regard them as code of exemplary conduct, and if an (non humorous) essey says do not X,Y,Z, I sincerely try not doing X,Y, or Z. I was genuinely surprised that you put such a difference in between these terms, and I expressed by bewilderment on a neutral senior user's page.
- I got asked by Golden, I decide to jump in. Your emotional jumping in felt to me that you had a go at me, you did not sound neutral to me, hence I asked a neutral user, who, while explaining my mistake in a peaceful manner (for which I was thankful), agreed that you did get more testy with me than would have been ideal. I did explain why I did not consider your intervention neutral, you may say these are my subjective feelings, but so are yours. You blamed me with threatening another user (I agree I could sound friendlier when I was questioning Golden's revert), but this felt like you were threatening me and putting an ultimatum in front of me (not a peaceful conflict resolution method, I hope you agree).
- Armatura says I'm not fit to mediate conflicts in AA2 I explained above why I did not like the tone of your explanation, I believe mentorship should never work like that.
- Vague post about me to the Teahouse - Armatura asks what to do if a mentor appears to be abusing their role? Not knowing what wiki mentorship is and the code of conduct of it, I asked in Teahouse those questions, and what I should do if I think boundaries are being stretched. I did not mention your name and did not report you anywhere, the question was for my own learning.
- Armatura comes to my talk page... Armatura offers me reading material I came to your page following the advice given in Teahouse. After seeing you failed to see a problem when there is a problem with mentee's edits, I hoped you may reflect after reading academic material on well-described negative aspects of mentor-mentee relationship.
- Armatura blatantly lying. Is this WP:CIV from you? My answer did not deny it was about you, I said "If you associate yourself with some of the things I asked about in TeaHouse, perhaps there has been some reflection after cooling down", meaning that I was talking about you and that I was happy you had some reflection on the points I made to you. You snapped at me again, hence I decided to leave the non-productive conversation peacefully, with a compliment in your address.
- Compliment was genuine, by the way, I am aware of your contributions on Scots Wikipedia and things you say there on your userpage that you really love helping people and that you will not be afraid to stand-up to injustice deserve admiration. But, I don't think you are ideal, and I don't welcome your taking sides in AA2 debates, despite repeatedly declaring no bias. You defend problematic editors: One is blocked for sockpupetry, one is doing questionable edits (like this) while in probation after recent block for sockpuppetry]. Another on, recently warned for edit warringcame to my talk page with seemingly reserved by stil unfriendly tone, "if I assume good faith" is never a good idea for starting conversation with a stranger, on Wiki or off Wiki, and wanted him to feel what it would sound like if I was him and he was me. The number of quoted policies sounded wikilawyering to me, for the pattern of English writing - we have previously seen disruptive coordinated editing from certain users and this language difference was quite striking, so it got my attention, check his previous posts and see for yourself.
- claims there are current enwiki editors still actively involved in offwiki coordination This is not true. Everyone can read with their own eyes the memo on my page: A case of pro-Azerbaijani off-wiki coordination similar to WP:EEML have been revealed on Russian Wikipedia in 2010, with some of the current pro-Azerbaijani editors of English Wikipedia on the mailing list.
- Outing I did not know anything about wikipolicis of outing at the time, and that such concerning behaviour should have been reported to Arbcom. I never crossed that boundarie again, once it was explained, hence the IBAN was rescinded and annulled in due course. --Armatura (talk)
- Even though my account is 15 years old, I have not spent as much time on Wikipedia as much you think I do, and do not have experience you keep assuming I have - see my activity over years and that will be clear. I am grateful to all users who helped me to improve George Klein article I started, apologies for initial mistakes, I am yet to check what wiki copyvivo is and with what sauce it has to be eaten with. Best wishes, --Armatura (talk) 00:59, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Nableezy
The whole point of the aware template is to establish awareness. I think the user is clearly aware and the request for enforcement should be considered on its merits and not dismissed on the technicality that the template is on their user page and not their user talk page. I have not looked at and do not intend to look at those merits, but it shouldnt be ignored without examining the merits. nableezy - 03:22, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Szmenderowiecki
First, we are not a bureaucracy. Secondly, a cursory look at AE archives reveals that a report against the user was filed in January 2021 (withdrawn). Armatura additionally commented in WP:AA2-related AE reports in November 2021 and in June 2022. According to awareness rules, a user is aware if
In the last twelve months, the editor has participated in any process about the area of conflict at arbitration requests or arbitration enforcement
(point 4). This clearly happened here. Please proceed with the analysis on the merits.
This comment does not endorse anyone's statements, it's just to make sure that the AE complaint is not dismissed on a technicality. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:29, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Armatura
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Armatura had not been given a DS notice since Aug of 2020, so we kind of have to do that in order to consider sanctions for actions after this notice is given. That doesn't mean an admin can't sanction using standard admin authority for any general bad behavior, but we can't DS sanction if they haven't been notified in the last 12 months. They did add the notification, which is odd, but I stand by giving the template given the circumstances. I have not looked at the merits at this time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 19:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I haven't looked at the merits either yet, but the user has had - since January 2021 - a notice on their userpage stating "This user is aware of the discretionary sanction topic area(s): Armenia, Azerbaijan, or related conflicts. He should not be given alerts for those areas.". If a user with that template on their userpage was brought to AE and then actually tried to claim that the filing was invalid because they hadn't received an alert, they'd be told "No, because you specifically asked not to be given one", so that should be the case in all circumstances. Black Kite (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2022 (UTC)