Review removal of rollback on User:Robvanvee
Firstly, thank you to both Ritchie for kicking us off with an excellent test-case (not ultra-clear cut, whilst self-raising to give a drama-less start) and to everyone who has participated. Since there isn't a specific timeline for XRV/AAR, I'm going off "seemingly clear rough consensus", and obviously the reviewed party has commented. Anyway, to business. There appears to be consensus to overturn removal of Rollback from Robvanvee. This was heavily based off the fact that the use of Redwarn enabled edit summaries to be given, so the negative of rollback use was far less. It was noted this is an issue with rollback policy, and perhaps a discussion should be had to factor in the more nuanced use possible with tools.
It wasn't clear exactly what level of warning, should be given in its place (which includes those noting that use in this case is fully permissable), but Ritchie certainly could talk with Rob to caution them. In relation to |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I suppose I should start this noticeboard off with a self-review on one of my own actions.
Today, I removed the rollback flag from User:Robvanvee. My reasons are given at User talk:Robvanvee#Removal of rollback where I quoted several lines of WP:ROLLBACK policy, explaining why I thought it was necessary. There is also a note on WP:ANI here. To explain a bit further, when a good-faith edit is reverted using the rollback option, the user will look at the relevant links in the automated edit-summary, and get the mistaken impression their edits were vandalism or disruptive, which leads to an unhealthy environment. As this user has just gone up to the limit of WP:3RR and narrowly avoided a block, I don't trust them to use the permission responsibly at this time.
However, I am conscious that this might be overkill for this situation, and there is not necessarily a solid consensus for this. I am also mindful of this last time I did this, on User:Abelmoschus Esculentus, the user immediately retired and never edited Wikipedia again - even though my administrator actions were not criticised by anyone (if anything, they were endorsed). (Looking at my logs, I notice I also removed it from User:Freshacconci in March 2019 but self-reverted a few minutes later as "draconian", and also removed it from User:CLCStudent in August 2020, who is now indef-blocked for sockpuppetry).
So I'm bringing this action here to review to see if the community would endorse or not endorse this administrator action. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:44, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- The reason (vanilla) rollback should only be used to revert vandalism is that it provides a generic edit summary only (per WP:ROLLBACKUSE) -- both edits you link to on his user talk ([1] and [2]) do provide informative edit summaries due to the way WP:REDWARN works. While he did violate the letter of WP:ROLLBACKUSE, I don't think he violated the spirit of it. (Perhaps this is just a case of the guideline not taking into account "technological advances"?) This is not to say that the reverts were correct (and I believe that poor reverts can be cause to revoke rollback rights), but rather that they should not be treated as evidence of rollback abuse. 15 (talk) 14:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Is a bolded opinion necessary or can general comments such as the one above also be made? 15 (talk) 14:11, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- @15 general comments are welcome. If you wish to be clear on whether you ultimately endorse or do not endorse the decision having that bolded vote is best. If you are comfortable letting the closer interpet your response when deciding on consensus a general comment works. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:53, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Is a bolded opinion necessary or can general comments such as the one above also be made? 15 (talk) 14:11, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with 15, although I don't think Robvanvee even violated the letter of WP:ROLLBACKUSE, which explicitly states that "[i]f a tool or manual method is used to add an appropriate explanatory edit summary (as described in the Additional tools section below), then rollback may be freely used as with any other method of reverting." (If that were not the case, half of all RedWarn users would have their rollback privileges revoked this instant.) The edit-warring concerns are certainly more legitimate, but since the editor in question seemed genuinely confused and apologetic, I wouldn't jump immediately to revoking rights unless the problem became a pattern. I suppose that means I'll !vote overturn and hope that Robvanvee treats this as a warning to be a bit more circumspect with reverting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 15:44, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- To wax philosophical: one of the questions that this new forum will need to decide is how much deference we're going to afford to those whose actions we're reviewing, or put another way what our standard of review will be. It doesn't matter so much in this case since Ritchie has asked for us to review his actions (thank you for bringing this here!), but soon we'll be dealing with tough decisions where no easy answer is apparent. In such cases, I think it's important to avoid substituting our own views for the relevant administrator's judgment. Second-guessing tough decisions discourages people from making them in the first place, particularly when a motley crowd of non-admins (like me!) is trying to interpose its view for that of someone whom the community has trusted to make tough decisions independently. The question for us at XRV should be more along the lines of "is this the sort of action that a reasonable administrator might find necessary" and not "I personally would make a different choice". (In other words, we want clear error review, not de novo review.) Just as DRV is not AfD 2.0, so too XRV is not administrative actions 2.0. I don't think this distinction is too relevant here since, again, Ritchie has been thoughtful enough to open this up for community comment himself, but it's an important thing to think about more generally. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 16:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- overturn - the question for me is if this is a suitable thing to be reverting. In my eyes, they are suitable reverts, regardless of what the tools used to do them were. They did leave an edit summary, so in my eyes that seems fair. To me this seems like a knowledge gap, that a quiet word would be better than removing the tools themselves. The edit warring deal is bad, although they are simply removing uncited material. I'm yet to see them act uncivilly, nor do anything that they wouldn't have done the same without the tool. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Would it not have made more sense to bring your concerns with the editor first? They've not made hundreds of thousands of edits but they are close to the first hundred. Or at least wait for them to say something before asking for a review. Since your first followup to revoking rollback is to ask for review, my opinion is that it would have been better to have asked for the review of Rob's use of rollback instead, after a discussion with them. Also, I noticed an error in your explanation at Rob's talk page. This diff argues notability because (i) the section is titled "Notable references in popular culture" (ii) Notability is absolutely one of the considerations in adding to lists. It is in fact one of the principal criteria used to prevent lists from growing unmanageable or contra WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Finally, as above, my understanding is that rollback policy only applies to rollbacks made without custom summaries. So, if there's nothing more, I'm leaning not endorse. Usedtobecool ☎️ 16:18, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with the interpretation of WP:NOTEVERYTHING; the notability guideline says "On Wikipedia, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article." and using it in another context is misleading. Also, notability is not necessary for a list; the guideline page says, "Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable". I also do not think it is correct to refer to a difference of interpretation of policy as an "error". Regarding, "Would it not have made more sense to bring your concerns with the editor first?" Well yes, in hindsight it would; it's just I saw the user had been warned at ANI and narrowly avoided a BOOMERANG, admits on their user page they make lots of mistakes, and their contribution list show a lot of rollbacks that aren't clear and blatant vandalism, at which point I thought "okay, this looks like a bit of a 'bull in a china shop' case, looks like I'll have to be tough but fair on this one". Anyway, that's my thought process on this. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- You and Rob had a difference of interpretation of policy regarding whether notability can be a criterion for items in a list. I am on Rob's side (WP:CSC, but also WP:LISTCRIT and WP:LISTPEOPLE; it is how I've always seen lists work on Wikipedia) but, regardless, invoking in an edit summary a policy interpretation you don't agree with can't be one of the examples of rollback misuse. I said "error" in that sense. But if "error" is imprecise for the situation, I apologise (English is only my third language). The "I make loads of mistakes" part probably should not be a basis for sanction; it reads like self-deprecating humour to me. Usedtobecool ☎️ 17:41, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with the interpretation of WP:NOTEVERYTHING; the notability guideline says "On Wikipedia, notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article." and using it in another context is misleading. Also, notability is not necessary for a list; the guideline page says, "Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable". I also do not think it is correct to refer to a difference of interpretation of policy as an "error". Regarding, "Would it not have made more sense to bring your concerns with the editor first?" Well yes, in hindsight it would; it's just I saw the user had been warned at ANI and narrowly avoided a BOOMERANG, admits on their user page they make lots of mistakes, and their contribution list show a lot of rollbacks that aren't clear and blatant vandalism, at which point I thought "okay, this looks like a bit of a 'bull in a china shop' case, looks like I'll have to be tough but fair on this one". Anyway, that's my thought process on this. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Overturn The reverts in question seem to have edit summaries that refer to the use of Wikipedia:RedWarn. This is not an obvious use of rollback to do a quick-and-dirty revert w/o explanation. While we are all responsible for the tools we use, I wonder if RedWarn is really using "rollback" or if it's merely being tagged as such. If this is going to cause similar issues, should RedWarn really be piggybacking on rollback (if that is indeed the case) instead of using standard revert technology? In any event, the presence of an edit summary does not make this a clear-cut violation. Finally, WP:ROLLBACK advises that admins
should allow the editor an opportunity to explain their use of rollback before taking any action – there may be justification of which the administrator is not aware (such as reversion of a banned user).
—Bagumba (talk) 17:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- One factor in reaching the decisions I did was this comment from an IP that went unanswered. If that message had been replied to, I might have thought "well he communicated okay so I'll have a word first". And I certainly think it's a bit odd that RedWarn (something I haven't heard of until today) tags edits as "Rollback" when they don't need to, and fixing that would help things. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:45, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- That's not what's happening. The tool does use rollback, and it provides an edit summary while doing so. The API documentation is at mw:API:Rollback and shows the existence of a "summary" parameter that was used by the tool. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:59, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Rollback by default doesn't include edit summaries; that is why there are limitations set on what you can rollback (only those reverts whose reasons are obvious without an edit summary). If you use rollback using additional tools or workarounds that let you use custom summaries, there are no limitations (you can use it for any revert). RedWarn happens to be one of those tools. Usedtobecool ☎️ 18:05, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Surely then the problem is with the software? Let's fix (or deprecate) rollback so you have to give an edit summary when reverting any edit. I don't think the 0.5 seconds it takes to type "rvv" when reverting somebody putting obscene images on a high-traffic article is going to be an issue. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- That's basically just undo, then. As I understand it, the purpose of the rollback link in the MediaWiki interface for those who have the rollback permission is to allow reverts without having to enter an edit summary. isaacl (talk) 19:58, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- That and that it's much faster, faster than when you rollback with twinkle (even one that doesn't ask you for a summary). I think it processes the request server-side. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:25, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
- That's basically just undo, then. As I understand it, the purpose of the rollback link in the MediaWiki interface for those who have the rollback permission is to allow reverts without having to enter an edit summary. isaacl (talk) 19:58, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Surely then the problem is with the software? Let's fix (or deprecate) rollback so you have to give an edit summary when reverting any edit. I don't think the 0.5 seconds it takes to type "rvv" when reverting somebody putting obscene images on a high-traffic article is going to be an issue. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Bagumba Redwarn uses pseudo-rollback (replacing the current revision with an older one) by default, rollbackers can enable Redwarn to use rollback, which makes reverts slightly faster.15 (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- One factor in reaching the decisions I did was this comment from an IP that went unanswered. If that message had been replied to, I might have thought "well he communicated okay so I'll have a word first". And I certainly think it's a bit odd that RedWarn (something I haven't heard of until today) tags edits as "Rollback" when they don't need to, and fixing that would help things. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 17:45, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I'm not an admin or a super experienced user, but if I were in Ritchie's shoes, I likely would have given Robvanvee a stern warning about how rollback is properly used, and established that any further significant issues with the use of the tool would lead to permission being revoked. Unless Robvanvee has been warned about misuse of rollback in the recent past, say within the past year, in that case I would have also revoked permission to use rollback. The diffs identified by Ritchie were absolutely improper uses of rollback. The question I have is, are these isolated or part of a pattern? If Robvanvee takes into consideration the concerns with these improper rollbacks, and pledges to only use rollback as appropriate (reverting obvious vandalism) going forward, I'd support having their rollback perms reinstated, perhaps on a trial basis for a month. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 17:53, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Overturn. On use of rollback and RedWarn, my take on this is that it is irrelevant whether a revert is tagged with "rollback" or not, or how it is technically performed, only if it is justified (either by obviousness of the reason or by providing a good reason). It is important that rollbackers can be trusted not to edit war. Ritchie333 gives an ANI link to a discussion where the user is unfamiliar with the difference between edit warring and 3RR (extremely commonplace across Wikipedia), and has edit warred. The user doesn't quite seem to understand edit warring after they are first informed, as they said,
I have no intention of continuing the edit war, or violating any Wikipedia policies for that matter. Never have in all my years here
. Except they did just violate a Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Edit warring, through their edit warring at Taylor Gang Entertainment. They have a very calm and positive attitude towards the ANI thread, so what is needed here is not sanctions, or removal of tools to prevent disruption, but an explanation. I've made a comment to this effect at ANI. — Bilorv (talk) 18:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC) - "The above restrictions apply to standard rollback, using the generic edit summary. If a tool or manual method is used to add an appropriate explanatory edit summary [...], then rollback may be freely used as with any other method of reverting."[3] As RedWarn works without rollback too, just not as performant, revoking the permission does not prevent further use of RedWarn in the same manner as before. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:58, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Overturn I don't think going straight to removal is justified in this case. WP:ROLLBACK states
Standard rollback is a fast way of undoing problematic edits, but it has the disadvantage that only a generic edit summary is generated, with no explanation of the reason for the change.
Robvanvee did not use standard rollback. They used a script which allows them to replace the generic edit summary with an explanatory one. I don't think there is any way the editor being reverted could "get the mistaken impression their edits were vandalism or disruptive" as Ritchie states above. There is nothing wrong with reverting good faith edits with rollback if the generic edit summary is replaced.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think the root problem here is that the historical use of rollback has made some of the policy confusing, particularly "Use of standard rollback for any other purposes – such as reverting good-faith changes which you happen to disagree with – is likely to be considered misuse of the tool.". This then only clarifies what "standard rollback" means later on. But we don't sanction editors for simply reverting without an edit summary, So there's some inconsistency that needs to be tightened up. To be honest, with the popularity of Twinkle and automated tools, the concept of rollback is outdated and not really helpful, and I think it would be worth considering deprecating the feature. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- These days, rollback is basically used as a whitelist for Huggle etc. That said, I use software rollback via RCP etc (it's better than Twinkle rollback in those situations IME; I can ctrl click to rollback and still stay in RC.) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:35, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I've never understood why we need tools to deal with vandalism, but then I've got a block button so I guess that's why I'm completely clueless when it comes to the existence of these tools. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:38, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Ritchie333, 60-120 edits per minute need to be filtered somehow if we intend to go through them live as humans. The first tool in the line is ORES, which is used by Special:RecentChanges or Huggle to filter contributions by intent. We then need to revert multiple revisions by the same user while ideally specifying a reason, and then we're supposed to place a warning on the user's talk page. You can do all of this manually, if the number of recent changes patrollers is high enough to cope with the flood of edits. It isn't, so tools are used to automate the repetitive, non-editorial part of the process. Very few people technically need a vehicle to commute; most can walk by foot. The inefficiency of walking to work, in most situations, justifies the use of vehicles. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I've never understood why we need tools to deal with vandalism, but then I've got a block button so I guess that's why I'm completely clueless when it comes to the existence of these tools. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:38, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- These days, rollback is basically used as a whitelist for Huggle etc. That said, I use software rollback via RCP etc (it's better than Twinkle rollback in those situations IME; I can ctrl click to rollback and still stay in RC.) ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:35, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think the root problem here is that the historical use of rollback has made some of the policy confusing, particularly "Use of standard rollback for any other purposes – such as reverting good-faith changes which you happen to disagree with – is likely to be considered misuse of the tool.". This then only clarifies what "standard rollback" means later on. But we don't sanction editors for simply reverting without an edit summary, So there's some inconsistency that needs to be tightened up. To be honest, with the popularity of Twinkle and automated tools, the concept of rollback is outdated and not really helpful, and I think it would be worth considering deprecating the feature. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Overturn The idea of rollback atm is really the concept of reverting edits without a reason provided. The use of software rollback with summary is not really rollback; see WP:ROLLBACKUSE which says
Standard rollback is a fast way of undoing problematic edits, but it has the disadvantage that only a generic edit summary is generated, with no explanation of the reason for the change. For this reason, it is considered inappropriate to use it in situations where an explanatory edit summary would normally be expected. Rollback may be used...
Since both the quoted edits actually include a summary, this is just a complaint about the use of technical rollback with summary, apparently via RedWarn. That's functionally equivalent to using undo. Not a violation of policy in letter or in spirit. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:30, 14 December 2021 (UTC) - Comment — From what I can see from a quick glance it appears Ritchie333, made an innocent mistake. Sysops are merely human and are not infallible. I do not see why this is prolonged. I’m saddened when ample time which could have been used in true pertinent productivity is used up in gobbledygook. In my opinion, this should be closed & Rob given his perm back. I haven’t read all the entries thoroughly because I have no interest in gabfests, but from a quick glance, it appears one of the fundamental problems is R3 didn’t initiate a dialogue prior removing the perm, if that is the case I believe they know now to initiate a conversation with any given editor before they remove perms from editors. I’m not sure nor do i know if or not this discussion has a time frame in which it must run before it is closed but with the sheer numbers of overturns I’ve observed thus far, I think it’s safe to close this as one would close an AFD with a speedy keep if the number of keep !votes are overwhelming. Celestina007 (talk) 22:27, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - I implemented the RedWarn rollback feature in its current form. Enabling rollback simply speeds up reversions. There is no difference between using rollback and not using rollback for reversions other than speed.I have said several times both on and off wiki that the current WP:ROLLBACKUSE guidelines are confusing and don't apply to the main use and reason why people request the rollback permission, that being to access more powerful tools such as Huggle, and the current and past RFP/R page reflects this. The current rollback guidelines only really apply to rollback links ("standard rollback", this wording in and of itself is confusing too), with a small note saying that there's an exemption if an edit summary is applied. If anything, "rollback" as a user right in its current form simply is a flag that administrators apply to show that a user is trusted enough to use these more powerful tools. The rollback policy should be edited to reflect this, especially as stated on the page itself, the rollback behaviour is easily replicated by tools like Twinkle and, in this case, RedWarn.Also, Ritchie333 is not the only one to make this mistake. On the RedWarn talk page there have been several confused users and editors who try to reference this policy incorrectly. It is clear that this policy is confusing and irrelevant to the core uses of rollback in its current state and should be rewritten. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 01:45, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- Have any editors who are confused by this explained what's confusing about
If a tool or manual method is used to add an appropriate explanatory edit summary (as described in the Additional tools section below), then rollback may be freely used as with any other method of reverting.
? How could that be written any clearer? Levivich 01:57, 16 December 2021 (UTC)- Trying to stay on topic here, but that's not really relevant to the point I'm making. The policy as a whole is confusing, and many of those just skimming rarely notice that line since the policy is practically dedicated to using the rollback link.An example of this: say somebody said, "I used rollback on this edit".So trivia time, did the editor:
- A: use the rollback link (also known as "standard rollback")
- B: use a "tool or manual method" which actually doesn't count under the rollback policy, rather the reversion policy (because of that line you mentioned), but they still technically used rollback because the tool you were using uses the "rollback" API and the tag on the edit links to an irrelevant policy for the edit they just made
- C: did they not use "rollback" at all and just used a rollback button (which acted as a glorified undo) in Twinkle or RedWarn?
- Answer: None of this matters, because the outcome is the same. Edits were reverted.The rollback policy in its current form is confusing and redundant to the reversion and disruption policy in the vast majority of cases. If an edit was reverted with no summary, as would occur with rollback links, there are times where that would be appropriate and inappropriate, and any user, rollback or not, would be expected to stick by the reversion policy.If the user used a more powerful tool that requires the community trust (Huggle, Rollback Links, SWViewer, etc.), therefore requiring rollback permissions to be granted to that user, and the user was misusing the tool and causing disruption, the user has violated the communities trust and an administrator should revoke the rollback right to prevent disruptive use of that tool - the same as any other form of disruption mitigation such as blocking, topic banning, etc. That is the current and predominant use of the rollback right, and the policy should reflect that, i.e. rollback as a user right is a sign of trust within the community to use more powerful tools, and approval to use said more powerful tools may be revoked at any time in case of disruption. Everything else should be covered in the wider reversion policy. ✨ Ed talk! ✨ 02:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- Trying to stay on topic here, but that's not really relevant to the point I'm making. The policy as a whole is confusing, and many of those just skimming rarely notice that line since the policy is practically dedicated to using the rollback link.An example of this: say somebody said, "I used rollback on this edit".So trivia time, did the editor:
- Have any editors who are confused by this explained what's confusing about
- I think it's good that we restrict use of no-summary rollback to vandalism and a few other situations. No-summary reverts are generally a bad idea outside those situations to begin with, and so if we're going to be giving people a tool that (without modification by scripts) only does no-summary reverts, it makes sense to enshrine that norm in policy. So I like where we currently draw the line: treat default rollback specially, treat custom-summary rollback as the same as any other kind of revert. If there's a concern about MediaWiki:tag-mw-rollback and the wording of Wikipedia:Rollback, those are a matter distinct from how editors use the tool.What I don't think anyone's discussed, though, is the fact that all rollbacks are minor edits. Making a nontrivial revert with custom-summary rollback is still an issue as a violation of best practices regarding minor edits. (It's fascinating that after 20 years we have all sorts of policies and guidelines on absurdly niche things, but nothing more than an infopage on minor edits.) But I'm sure everyone who uses RedWarn or custom-summary rollback scripts has on occasion used them for edits that weren't really minor, myself included. If something is to be done about that, it would be either a change to Wikipedia:Rollback or a change to the software, not action being taken against any individual rollbacker. Overturn. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 04:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. 15 said everything that I could possibly say but better.
Rollback abuse does happen, and I recently got into a spat with a user who more blatantly violated WP:Rollback than Robvanvee has here (not mentioning names since they aren't being reviewed-- and either way it was just a one-off thing from them). My preference for these things is normally to just start with a warning before escalating, but I think a simple discussion would've been better here (Hindsight is obviously 20/20).
Regardless, I do think Ritchie has done a wonderful service by opening up his action for review. It's been helpful setting the tone for this board which is honestly rather critical to whether or not it will work in the long term. Hopefully it stays this way? –MJL ‐Talk‐☖ 06:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Warning
Not an administrator action, and thus out of scope of this board. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:40, 27 December 2021 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Editor warned my account instead of people who deleted my edits without showing any source.
- Editor warned my account instead of people who deleted my edits without showing any source. on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warringHsynylmztr (talk · contribs · logs · block log) performed by EdJohnston (talk · contribs · logs) (User talk:EdJohnston#Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring)
I provided historical sources for my edit but 4 editors kept deleting my edit without showing any sources. I reported them but EdJohnson warned me instead of them. Which is more important for Wikipedia, actually having sources or having more people to back you? Hsynylmztr (talk) 12:00, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Hsynylmztr, this is about a comment/warning made by an administrator and not about a use of tools, which is what this page is for. Quoting from the top section:
Any action involving a tool not available to all confirmed editors—except those covered by another, more specific review process—may be submitted to XRV for community review.
– anyone can warn another user, and so this is out of the scope of this noticeboard. Regards, Giraffer (talk·contribs) 12:13, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Revocation of talk page access
NOT ENDORSED | |
While several editors felt that the removal of talk page editing privilege was within normal admin discretion, the consensus is that it wasn't warranted in this case, as the blocked editor wasn't using their talk page to continue the behavior for which they were blocked.
As this forum is for the review of individual administrative actions, this result should not be used to imply a wider consensus about removing talk page editing privileges in general, nor should it be taken to infer deeper criticism of the admin in question. An objection was also raised by some editors that WP:XRV should not have been used for this case, as the block in question had already expired and therefore the question is technically moot. There definitely should be a statute of limitations on these reviews; we shouldn't be reviewing actions from 2019. However, this forum is specifically intended, as per the wording in the original proposal, to address whether a specific admin action was endorsed by the community or not. This is exactly the kind of review envisaged in that approved proposal and so this was the appropriate forum.-- Aervanath (talk) 21:34, 4 January 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Edit own talk on User talk:Walter Görlitz performed by Vanjagenije (talk · contribs · logs) (User talk:Vanjagenije#User talk:Walter Görlitz)
I was blocked for edit warring in September. As with previous 3RR blocks, I continued to monitor my watchlist. I informed editors via my talk page when clear vandalism was occurring. I also informed editors when pages they had worked on were subtly changed. Vanjagenije revoked the ability for me to edit my talk page. The rationale was "Being blocked from editing means that you are blocked from editing. That aslo includes proxy editing, i.e. using your talk page to direct others what to edit." When my block expired, I responded with "how were my edits to this talk page either inappropriate or disruptive? While I am blocked, I can communicate with other editors. I can go to their talk page and click on the "email" link. I could do so even when you blocked my talk page editing. I can see how you might think this is looking for meat puppets, but in the past, I have been praised by admins for alerting talk page stalkers about unconstructive edits so this block came as a surprise. The other annoyance is that I would have gladly discussed it with you, but you were a bit overzealous and refused to enter a discussion." Vanjagenije responded to that question with "I think my explanation above is very clear. I have nothing more to add." I am simply looking for rationale as to if this is appropriate, and if a warning is not first merited. I am not looking for action against Vanjagenije so this may not be the correct forum. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:11, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- A discussion on Rich Farmbrough's talk page regarding precisely the same issue (except, perhaps, by the sheer amount of times it had been noted: ~100 in nine months) came to the opposite conclusion, and a number of admins including sitting arbs tied themselves in knots defending the same use/misuse of a talk page. FYI. ——Serial 22:03, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well two sitting arbs were present on that talk page: me and Worm That Turned and I don't think either of us felt particularly tied in knots. Speaking only for myself, I was the one who suggested talk page access should be revoked if proxy editing requests continued to come. When I received feedback from Hammersoft and Beetstra that they found that too strong an action I said I wouldn't do it. I still think there is a line somewhere between 1 edit not about the block and 81 edits I counted Rich having made that would warrant revocation of the talk page. I look forward to seeing what the community thinks here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding my feedback, I will ask the question: what exactly is removing talk-page access preventing if an editor is just using it for notes-to-self, thank yous and single-sentence replies to questions. I can see that you are preventing disruption when the editor is having long diatribes with other editors about policy/guideline/ongoing RfCs or other discussios, or when the editor is continuously pinging other editors to discuss or perform edits for them (excluding asking to revert vandalism), or is continuously asking to be unblocked. If it is not that, it almost looks like 'you are blocked, no STFU'. I have my concerns, and I understand there is a large grey area inbetween some commenting/notes-to-self and continuously pinging, but gheesh .. RF did 81 edits in 9 months, some TY-notes or polite answers to remarks/questions, some notes-to-self (or to whoever read them and decided by themselves to act on it), but when he pinged someone because he noticed some vandalism to revert the discussion turned to consider to silence him completely. Also there, I do not understand what it was supposed to prevent. If you don't want to see it, unwatch the talkpage. --Dirk Beetstra T C 10:58, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
- Well two sitting arbs were present on that talk page: me and Worm That Turned and I don't think either of us felt particularly tied in knots. Speaking only for myself, I was the one who suggested talk page access should be revoked if proxy editing requests continued to come. When I received feedback from Hammersoft and Beetstra that they found that too strong an action I said I wouldn't do it. I still think there is a line somewhere between 1 edit not about the block and 81 edits I counted Rich having made that would warrant revocation of the talk page. I look forward to seeing what the community thinks here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- I fail to see the value in reviewing already-expired admin actions. * Pppery * it has begun... 22:30, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- In regards to this, I am generally okay with reviewing expired admin actions. Firstly, because it doesn't mean the admin may not have made a mistake worth noting, and b, because otherwise the community tends to view sanctions as "sticking", which they wouldn't if reviewed and overturned. Nosebagbear (talk) 23:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Agree with Nosebagbear here, I have seen two different approaches from different admins to the same behaviour, and since emailing is still permitted, I would like to make mine the last block for this sort of action unless there is clear community consensus to prevent it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- In regards to this, I am generally okay with reviewing expired admin actions. Firstly, because it doesn't mean the admin may not have made a mistake worth noting, and b, because otherwise the community tends to view sanctions as "sticking", which they wouldn't if reviewed and overturned. Nosebagbear (talk) 23:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- So this question of "if you don't specifically ask a specific editor to make (permissable) edits, is it a breach of proxying warranting TPA removal" is one that's led to multiple huge discussions. Currently the Community hasn't gone clear-cut enough for an admin act along these lines to either be ruled in or out of scope. In effect, we're in judgement call territory. You can make a strong argument for either (if a specific example is otherwise neutral) side. As such, I wouldn't rule the admin's actions as unreasonable beyond the bounds of legitimate discretion. Nosebagbear (talk) 23:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Has this been evolving? The reason I ask is that in the past, I have actually been praised for continuing to edit constructively even though I was blocked. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
- Blocks are preventative (to prevent the cause of the block), not punitive. If Walter Görlitz is blocked for edit warring but wants to continue watching his watchlist and commenting on his talk page, he should be permitted to do so. Nobody is alleging that his talk page comments are attempting to continue an edit war. That said: please don't edit war. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 04:52, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- I don't like the tone of edits like this and this, and on a practical level you must know you are playing with fire to be writing comments with an attitude when you are currently blocked. When you are blocked/sanctioned, you are owed an explanation, not explanations every time you ask, so Vanjagenije is within their rights to explain at the time of TPA removal and then refuse to discuss further. However, I am failing to see how their interpretation of WP:PROXYING is valid (rather than simply being commonplace, which I think it is). WP:PROXYING prevents non-blocked/banned editors from making edits/actions that they have not independently ascertained to be constructive. In this case, I would AGF that the editors who followed these suggestions independently verified that the actions needed to be taken. TPA removal would be valid if blocking policy was that blocked users can only use talk page access to discuss unblocking. However, this is banning policy. I can't see a problem with someone making constructive edits on their talk page while blocked, either logically or legally (by the letter of policy/guideline). Blocks are not punitive and there was no prevention of disruptive behaviour by TPA removal. — Bilorv (talk) 08:04, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that blocked users should retain full access to their talk pages until and unless that action is disruptive. Asking other editors to make appropriate edits is absolutely not disruptive. Agree with Bilorv's distinction drawn between blocks and bans. For example, if an editor was topic banned and blocked, but used his or her talk page to propose changes prohibited by the topic ban, then yes, revoking write access to the talk page is appropriate. Removing talk page access for a series of non-disruptive edits is problematic at best, even though the wisdom of talk page editing while blocked instead of simply taking a break from Wikipedia entirely is debatable at best. Jclemens (talk) 21:04, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- I personally believe that talk page access and email access for blocked users are meant to technically allow block appeals, not circumventing a site-wide block by asking others to edit on the blocked user's behalf. The ability of well-connected blocked users to continue editing through their friends creates a two-tier system of editors: Those blocked with friends, and those blocked without friends. The term "unblockable" comes to mind. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 22:44, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- Nothing about the block process prevents, nor does policy forbid, off-wiki communication with other editors. What, exactly, is gained by allowing off-wiki communication, but denying on-wiki communication, again assuming that the communication and edits would be appropriate absent the block? Jclemens (talk) 23:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- But your personal belief, ToBeFree, should be written down somewhere in policy/guideline if it is to be enforced without warning by talk page access removals? Or is this not an endorsement of the admin action here? — Bilorv (talk) 10:12, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- The closest I can offer is WP:BE (and WP:BMB, but that's for bans) with its prohibition on "proxying". This is too vague to say I'm right and my interpretation is the only correct one, of course. It does perhaps justify voicing my interpretation, though. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:12, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification, ToBeFree; I think I understand your comment better now. — Bilorv (talk) 20:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- No worries – I should have provided a link to WP:BE in the first place, and I am unsure how relevant my personal views on it are for the review as well. It's a case of "I understand the action taken, am perhaps even thankful for it, yet can't point to a policy that directly specifically justifies the taken approach." I wouldn't have performed the action either, I think, as I would have expected it to be controversial. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:11, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification, ToBeFree; I think I understand your comment better now. — Bilorv (talk) 20:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- The closest I can offer is WP:BE (and WP:BMB, but that's for bans) with its prohibition on "proxying". This is too vague to say I'm right and my interpretation is the only correct one, of course. It does perhaps justify voicing my interpretation, though. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:12, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- (I don't work in user-conduct areas, so this is an outsider viewpoint.) What this seems to come down to is whether, in practice, medium to long-term blocks of editors (not IPs) are intended to have a punitive element. Observationally this seems to often be the case, even though policy clearly states the reverse. I don't think Vanjagenije's actions are at all unusual, nor do they fall outside what is generally interpreted as admin discretion, but I'd love to see a broader discussion of what longer blocks of potentially productive editors are intended to achieve. Espresso Addict (talk) 03:24, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- In terms of reviewing Vanjagenije's actions and tool usage, I don't think a case can be made for abuse or misuse because they fall within accepted levels of admin conduct and discretion. That doesn't mean I agree with his interpretation and understanding of policy or the conclusive measures he implemented thereby, I tentatively do not. I do agree with Espresso Addict that a broader discussion would be quite useful as, in my opinion, a bit more clarification coupled with a bit less discretion would ultimately be a good outcome (in these regards). If this were an ongoing action, I would suggest it be undone with the blocked user's ability to edit their own user talk page restored.--John Cline (talk) 15:21, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- There is no bright line rule regarding this. As a matter of policy this falls within administrative discretion. I've seen some admins do this in ways I found a bit heavy-handed, and other times I've seen it permitted for what I thought was far too long. I understand the compulsion to alert others to vandalism and so on, but really, the point of a block is that the user go away for the duration of it, not spend the whole time trying to get proxies to do their bidding, regardless of their motivation for doing so. And I think there is also the matter of WP:IDHT behavior from this user (seventeen edit warring blocks with a handful of other blocks for other objectionable behavior) that may lead admins to not have a lot of patience for such things. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:53, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- I would not endorse this action. Without faulting Vanjagenije, because it has become a relatively common practice to yank talk page access for a range of undefined offences, I can't find any basis for the idea that a blocked users talk page is only there for unblock requests in existing written policy. The blocking policy says
editing of the user's talk page should be disabled only in cases of continued abuse of their user talk page, or when the user has engaged on serious threats, accusations or outing which needs to be prevented from reoccurring
—I think we can all agree that pointing out vandalism is not abuse Wikipedia:Appealing_a_block says that talk pages are left openso that they are not shut out completely and are able to participate at least to some degree in Wikipedia
. Blocks (and this is a rare case where the block vs. ban distinction is not just pedantry) technically prevent a user from editing for a certain time; they don't exile them from our community. We encourage the idea that almost all blocked users can find their way back to editing. Walter may not be the best example of a blocked user using their talk page productively, but still I think it's unfair to impose additional sanctions on them that can seem punitive and that don't have a basis in written policy. Otherwise, how are people supposed to know what not to use their talk page for? A good outcome here would be for us to come up with an explicit policy on when talk page access should and should not be revoked. – Joe (talk) 08:51, 27 December 2021 (UTC) - Comment - I have just reviewed the history of Vanjagenije's talk page and do not see where he was notified of this discussion. Walter Görlitz, that's hugely not cool! I've taken care of the notification[4] and will open a thread on the talk page with further discussion; we need to better ensure that the performer of actions being discussed on this project page is aware of the discussion.--John Cline (talk) 10:23, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
- @John Cline: Why is my asking for clarification here uncool? I expressly stated in my initial request that I sought no action against the admin. The admin made it imminently that they felt they explained their actions sufficiently and had nothing more to add. I will assume the admin is a hypocrite if they actually comment here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:24, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
- Sounds to me like you are arguing that you don't want this action reviewed but actually want to have a broader policy discussion. That being the case I would suggest this simply be closed and you open the policy discussion at WP:VP. Beeblebrox (talk)
- Correct. No action requested and yes, I wrote that "this may not be the correct forum". Although village pump doesn't seem the right place either as it doesn't nicely fit into any of those topics either. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:09, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- Not trying to be snarky at all, but our de facto policy on this is that if you're a new account without friends, you aren't allowed to use your talk page for what you did, but if you have friends you can ignore the unspoken rule that you shouldn't be using your talk page to have your friends edit around a block either because admins don't feel like dealing with the fallout, or because your friends will take it to AN or here. While I agree with Beeblebrox that VPP is probably the best forum for this discussion, I also can somewhat confidently predict that the outcome will be no consensus meaning that the status quo of having two different applications of the policy depending on whether you're established/politically liked or not will probably continue. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:24, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- Correct. No action requested and yes, I wrote that "this may not be the correct forum". Although village pump doesn't seem the right place either as it doesn't nicely fit into any of those topics either. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:09, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- Sounds to me like you are arguing that you don't want this action reviewed but actually want to have a broader policy discussion. That being the case I would suggest this simply be closed and you open the policy discussion at WP:VP. Beeblebrox (talk)
- @John Cline: Why is my asking for clarification here uncool? I expressly stated in my initial request that I sought no action against the admin. The admin made it imminently that they felt they explained their actions sufficiently and had nothing more to add. I will assume the admin is a hypocrite if they actually comment here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:24, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
- I made the original block, but as towards the revocation of TPA, what Espresso Addict is getting at one of the tensions of the blocking policy WP:BLOCKDETERRENT is part of the blocks are preventative policy, and typically long-term blocks are made with the intent that time away from the project will both 1) deter future behaviour and 2) prevent more blocks during the time period from repeated behaviour. The policy explicitly allows for this with the following lines:
Blocks should be used to[...] deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior; and encourage a more productive, congenial editing style within community norms.
People doing the exact same thing they would do if not blocked non-stop, just on their talk page, doesn't really go in line with that. I think there's a difference between a few edits here or there, and non-stop review of watchlists and talk page posts. This isn't the only editor who is regularly blocked who does this, and he's certainly not the only one with friends to oppose TPA being revoked, but I think this is typically within discretion and in this case would have been justified as in line with the explicit language and objectives of the blocking policy quoted above. So, yeah, I endorse as within discretion. TonyBallioni (talk) 22:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC) - The purpose of the block was to stop the edit-warring. It worked: happy days! This editor was using his talk page to fight vandalism, which is a reasonable use of a talk page even for a currently-blocked editor. Fighting vandalism is everyone's job. I can see how revoking his talk page access harms the encyclopaedia, and I can't see how it helps anyone, so I'd overturn. And I'm not one of the alleged friends of Walter Goerlitz, my edits have never intersected with his to my knowledge.—S Marshall T/C 13:15, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
- Stopping the edit-warring didn't technically require the applied block duration nor width (site-wide), so either you're challenging these as well, or you're overlooking something that led to the duration and width choice. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:41, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- Exactly. This is a tension in the blocking policy. Blocks are preventative, not punishment, but the policy also states
Blocks serve to protect the project from harm, and reduce likely future problems. Blocks may escalate in duration if problems recur. They are meted out not as retribution but to protect the project and other users from disruption and inappropriate conduct, and to deter any future possible repetitions of inappropriate conduct.
When someone has 17 edit warring blocks, and was last blocked for a month, the last escalation possible beyond indefing someone is usually 3 months, and that absolutely serves both a deterrent effect (in the this really is your last chance way) and in saving admins time from having to monitor user talk pages/noticeboard for potential disputes that would show a user wasn't heading the warning and continuing to edit war. Both of those rationales are allowed by the clear language of the blocking policy. Like a few have said above, when to revoke TPA is a discretionary thing, but it can absolutely go in line with these portions of the blocking policy. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:11, 30 December 2021 (UTC)- I'm confining my review to the appeal this user has made, so I've spoken only about the revocation of talk page access, not the scope of the block. This user's problem behaviour was edit warring in the mainspace and revoking talk page access doesn't help manage that.—S Marshall T/C 16:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Exactly. This is a tension in the blocking policy. Blocks are preventative, not punishment, but the policy also states
- Stopping the edit-warring didn't technically require the applied block duration nor width (site-wide), so either you're challenging these as well, or you're overlooking something that led to the duration and width choice. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:41, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
- Vacate.
Administrative close /Struck overturn !vote after realizing that the block had expired at the time of appeal. Not a proper use of the venue.//Unstruck after considering procedural arguments further below/ Unnecessarily restrictive. No real benefit, as it is not clear why what Vanjagenije characterizes as "proxy editing" in this context is something bad. Proxy editing is just one way of seeing it, and it's more of a figure of speech, as it is really not editing. — Alalch Emis (talk) 00:37, 31 December 2021 (UTC) - Move to close. I don't think we should've had this discussion here at all, as the filer states they are not looking for any actual action to be taken, and it is not possible to overturn the action anyway since the block was already expired when the discussion began. This is turning into a broader policy discussion, which is not the purpose of this board. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:43, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think we have to be able to review decisions that have already expired, because otherwise we'd never be able to hear anything about a 31 hour block.—S Marshall T/C 22:01, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- @S Marshall: We could agree that the expired action was inappropriate but we wouldn't be able to overturn it because it had expired. Maybe the procedural result in such cases could be worded as "nominally overturned". — Alalch Emis (talk) 10:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- The antonym of "endorse" would be "deplore".—S Marshall T/C 13:04, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- How about "censure"? Edit: it would be stated clearly in any number of places that what is censured is the action not the editor. "Action censured" shortened to "censured". — Alalch Emis (talk) 14:42, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- How about these three possible outcomes: affirm, reverse, or vacate? Vexations (talk) 16:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think the concept here is clear, and I hope the closer of this discussion sees this as consensus that this revocation of talk page access is reviewable in this forum and should not be closed without action merely because the revocation has expired. We can discuss the exact wording for the concept on the talk page and I'll begin a discussion there now.—S Marshall T/C 17:58, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- How about these three possible outcomes: affirm, reverse, or vacate? Vexations (talk) 16:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- How about "censure"? Edit: it would be stated clearly in any number of places that what is censured is the action not the editor. "Action censured" shortened to "censured". — Alalch Emis (talk) 14:42, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- The antonym of "endorse" would be "deplore".—S Marshall T/C 13:04, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- @S Marshall: We could agree that the expired action was inappropriate but we wouldn't be able to overturn it because it had expired. Maybe the procedural result in such cases could be worded as "nominally overturned". — Alalch Emis (talk) 10:41, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think we have to be able to review decisions that have already expired, because otherwise we'd never be able to hear anything about a 31 hour block.—S Marshall T/C 22:01, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
- Blocked editors have full use of their talk page for anything they could do when unblocked. Asking people to make edits isn't the same kind of Proxy editing that we normally block or remove TPA for. If you make edits on behalf of a banned editor, that is clearly in violation of policy. If I make edits that are recommended by a blocked editor, and I take full responsibility for those edits, that is fine. This all assumes the blocked user is acting in good faith. I don't get all the confusion here. I've heard several admin say that this isn't allowed, but it has been and still is. A temporary block is not the same thing as BANNED. I've done this for a blocked editor, and I will do it again. Never for a banned editor, but someone riding out a month of block but needs to correct a couple of things, sure. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:42, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Decline of a G10 speedy deletion
Nothing more to be usefully said here. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Decline of a G10 speedy deletion on Adan Santiago Goc-ong Igut performed by Barkeep49 (talk · contribs · logs)
(see User talk:Fram#Adan Santiago Goc-ong Igut). I had tagged this article (since deleted by another admin) as a G10, as it was unverifiable in general, and worse contained explicit claims about [redacted] the subject, [redacted]. These claims were "sourced" to an article which didn't even mention the subject (obviously). While Barkeep49 agreed that the article contained statements so bad that they needed suppression, he didn't agree that the article should be G10 deleted and this simply removed the deletion nomination and left it at that. This is extremely irresponsible behaviour, which they wikilawyered around because not all of the page was negative apparently, and there was an IMDb source (yeah, an unreliable user-generated site-, so the page wasn't totally unsourced either. That's good news for the people wanting to vandalize, harass, or otherwise attack people: just make sure that you first create some "source" elsewhere, and your page is immune from speedy deletion no matter how outrageous the BLP claims in it are. Fram (talk) 17:50, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Speedy close. Not in scope. Review in deletion matters is at WP:DRV but as no deletion had taken place, even that would not be the right venue. Instead, the right venue is AfD. Edit: AfD had taken place and resulted in deletion. There's really nothing to talk about here. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:54, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- So if an admin does the wrong thing and another admin does the right thing afterwards, this isn't the right board to discuss that first wrong thing? That seems bizarre... Fram (talk) 18:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Fram: Hypothetically if an admin had done the wrong thing pertaining to speedy deletion and another admin did the right thing, there's categorically nothing to talk about. Whatsoever. If there was a persuasive pattern, then maybe. But still, not here. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- That makes no sense (the nothing to talk about: that it may belong at AN instead is of no concern to me). An action doesn't magically become better, worse, invisible, or not worth discussing because someone else made an action. If I were asking the first admin to overturn his action, yes, then that would be silly. But asking for a review of what happened, of what they did or refused to do, is not "nothing to talk about" by definition. You may consider the initial issue unimportant on its own merits, you may completely agree with what the original admin did (though, not being able to see the page involved, I wonder how you can), but the action of the second admin has no bearing at all on the possibility of discussion of the action of the first admin. Fram (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- It has eminent bearing. If this was a mistake that was quickly corrected by another administrator (in tandem with the AfD process), this means that the process is working excellently and we need not concern ourselves. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:37, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- That makes no sense (the nothing to talk about: that it may belong at AN instead is of no concern to me). An action doesn't magically become better, worse, invisible, or not worth discussing because someone else made an action. If I were asking the first admin to overturn his action, yes, then that would be silly. But asking for a review of what happened, of what they did or refused to do, is not "nothing to talk about" by definition. You may consider the initial issue unimportant on its own merits, you may completely agree with what the original admin did (though, not being able to see the page involved, I wonder how you can), but the action of the second admin has no bearing at all on the possibility of discussion of the action of the first admin. Fram (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Fram: Hypothetically if an admin had done the wrong thing pertaining to speedy deletion and another admin did the right thing, there's categorically nothing to talk about. Whatsoever. If there was a persuasive pattern, then maybe. But still, not here. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- So if an admin does the wrong thing and another admin does the right thing afterwards, this isn't the right board to discuss that first wrong thing? That seems bizarre... Fram (talk) 18:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- It's going to be hard for most people to weigh in on this because I suppressed some information prior to the page being deleted and so will be neutrally alerting the oversight list of this discussion as they are able to see all information and offer a complete review of my actions in-line with that groups practices. However, administrators should see the version I edited which removed the information Fram is concerned about. I believe that action, and accompanying revdel (or suppression) request rather than G10 is and was what remains appropriate. I look forward to considering the feedback offered by this review. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- This matter was settled at AfD. Rehashing here is a waste of time. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- You seem to be totally out of your depth here. Fram (talk) 18:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- This is not about the version that was at AfD, so perhaps just shut up about the bloody AfD which is not related to this at all? Fram (talk) 18:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- In regards to Fram's comments above, I explicitly noted when declining to G10 it that I had not considered other CSD criteria. Liz who ended up deleting it did so under G4 which seems appropriate. I also noted on Fram's talk page that removing the troubling content and requesting revdel of suppression for those edits, rather than deleting the entire article, is what our PAG calls for and in the case of an experienced editor like Fram, I would expect that to have been considered before going to an option like G10. As to whether or not this is the right forum, I don't believe DRV handles a decision to not speedy delete something and so this seems like the right place. But if DRV is the right place that's fine too. I agree with Fram that one of these two forums is within scope to review this decision. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:05, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- As there was nothing in the article worth keeping (even ignoring the G4 issue which I wasn't aware of), with an editor adding fake references to the suppressed info ut also to most of the remainder, no, I didn't consider any of the other options better. Deleting the whole article as soon as possible was the only appopriate reaction to such a terrible article. Perhaps, as you were aware that I am an experienced editor and so on, you could have considered that I don't use G10 lightly and that it may well have been warranted? If you have an article with suppressable material, with no better version to return to, with an editor adding fake sources (sources used to "verify" something but which don't even mention the subject), an editor with no history of good edits, whose other articles were similar hoaxes or problem articles (and now deleted as well), then there is not a single reason to actually keep any of it a second longer than necessary. I don't know when you suppressed the information, it certainly was still there when I had to G10 it a second time since you refused it in the first place without any indication that you planned to take any action. Fram (talk) 18:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- This matter was settled at AfD. Rehashing here is a waste of time. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- This will sound like a rhetorical question, but it's an honest straightforward question, as I haven't been here before. Is this new forum intended to be used to review single, isolated CSD declines? Especially ones that have basically been made moot? If this is just a one-off, seems like not a good use of everyone's time. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:01, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- If it is serious enough, I think it is. This refusal to delete the page was so outrageous, and the wikilawyering because "not everything was negative" and "it had an IMDB source" so appalling, that simply ignoring it because another admin deleted it afterwards seems wrong. Fram (talk) 18:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Not outrageous, not wikilawyering, and more importantly not within the scope of this venue. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- As shown above, you have no idea what you are talking about, so please drop it. Fram (talk) 18:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Dial the aggression down or you'll be blocked from this page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Deal with the one responding all the time without knowing what he is saying instead perhaps? Or is it still the old case that civil disruption is allowed, but getting fed up with it is a problem? "This matter was settled at AfD. Rehashing here is a waste of time." was the "informed" opinion of this editor, I guess it needs applause instead? Fram (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- They are not required to be perfect. "Being as smart as Fram" is not a prerequisite for posting here. They made one mistake in understanding, everything else they've said is a pretty main-stream opinion. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- We are reading different comments I guess. Fram (talk) 18:40, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I'm actually finding the clerking a bit annoying myself. —valereee (talk) 19:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- They are not required to be perfect. "Being as smart as Fram" is not a prerequisite for posting here. They made one mistake in understanding, everything else they've said is a pretty main-stream opinion. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Deal with the one responding all the time without knowing what he is saying instead perhaps? Or is it still the old case that civil disruption is allowed, but getting fed up with it is a problem? "This matter was settled at AfD. Rehashing here is a waste of time." was the "informed" opinion of this editor, I guess it needs applause instead? Fram (talk) 18:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Dial the aggression down or you'll be blocked from this page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- As shown above, you have no idea what you are talking about, so please drop it. Fram (talk) 18:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Not outrageous, not wikilawyering, and more importantly not within the scope of this venue. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- If it is serious enough, I think it is. This refusal to delete the page was so outrageous, and the wikilawyering because "not everything was negative" and "it had an IMDB source" so appalling, that simply ignoring it because another admin deleted it afterwards seems wrong. Fram (talk) 18:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Should removal of a CSD tag be reviewed as an admin action? Couldn't any editor, besides the creator of the page, remove the tag? Firefangledfeathers 18:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- It shouldn't. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Speedy close. This forum only deals with disputes "involving a tool not available to all confirmed editors", and removing a speedy-deletion tag is something that any editor can do. While I suppose Barkeep49 made the choice not to delete the page, this is administrative action review, not administrative inaction review. I also agree with Alalch above (who does know what he's doing) that deletion-related matters aren't really within XRV's scope. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:20, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Alalch, who thinks this is about an AfD? Right... If this isn't the right venue, then please move it to AN or ANI instead. Fram (talk) 18:22, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I support a move to AN. Are there ani objections? Firefangledfeathers 18:23, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I appreciate the concerns below about focusing too much on process, but this is a case where I think following the process also yields the best substantive outcome: the only thing this discussion can do is draw more people's attention to very sensitive deleted/oversighted information, which is precisely the opposite of what WP:BLP says we should be doing. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 18:50, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Alalch, who thinks this is about an AfD? Right... If this isn't the right venue, then please move it to AN or ANI instead. Fram (talk) 18:22, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × many) Still thinking about the substance, but can we drop the procedural arguments, please? There is no dedicated forum for this besides ANI, and this is likely a better venue than the cesspit. Can we just examine the actual dispute? Vanamonde (Talk) 18:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Why would we drop the procedural argument if the procedural argument is the most conducive for the project as a whole? This is the wrong forum and WP:AN could be the right forum, if only the appeal was about something not totally trivial. Speedy deletion means speedy mistakes. It's a routine thing. If, hypothetically, one administrator made a speedy mistake in this highly routined process which was superseded by another administrator making a better call, there's categorically nothing to talk about. Not only would that be business as usual, it would be business going great. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- G10 speedies of this kind (where the material needs suppression) are hardly so routine. Removing G10 normally means that I wasn't allowed to readd the tag (but IAR), and that I would have needed to nominate the article for Prod or AfD instead (not being aware that it had been AfD under other titles). This situation is not "business going great" at all. Fram (talk) 18:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- No, it wouldn't. Theoretically, if a sitting Arb made a serious mistake, it ought to be made clear to them it was a mistake. To your first point; because community time is our most precious resource, not office space at WP:AAR. Arguing about minutia at this level is pointless, and in keeping with that principle, this is the last I'll say about it. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 what's the connection to Wikipedia:WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: Administrative Action Review is what I meant. I didn't check the damn shortcut, apologies...though we really ought to claim it for here. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I was wondering if maybe it was some variation on WP:TROUT that I wasn't aware of. I mean, getting slapped with a fish is unpleasant, but I imagine getting slapped with a crocodile would be even worse. -- RoySmith (talk) 19:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93: undergoing RfD ... — Alalch Emis (talk) 19:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @RoySmith: Administrative Action Review is what I meant. I didn't check the damn shortcut, apologies...though we really ought to claim it for here. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Vanamonde93 what's the connection to Wikipedia:WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Why would we drop the procedural argument if the procedural argument is the most conducive for the project as a whole? This is the wrong forum and WP:AN could be the right forum, if only the appeal was about something not totally trivial. Speedy deletion means speedy mistakes. It's a routine thing. If, hypothetically, one administrator made a speedy mistake in this highly routined process which was superseded by another administrator making a better call, there's categorically nothing to talk about. Not only would that be business as usual, it would be business going great. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Speedy deletion is inherently routine. It's speedy.
immediate
. A sitting Arb is not a guru of CSD. They didn't become that because they were infallible at speedy deletion. They can comfortably make a number of such hypothetical suboptimal calls. We aren't doing brain surgery here. Take a real world perspective for a second. It's inconsequential for the project, and this instance merely proves it. That's why there are thousand plus administrators, and not one. The process has worked wonderfully here so far, resulting in a reaffirmation of the fact that problematic content can be deleted in a timely fashion. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:57, 5 January 2022 (UTC)- This is the place to review actions, not processes. If a rouge admin deletes the Main Page and someone else reverts them, would you say "the process has worked wonderfully" and leave it at that? NebY (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I would say that the process of fighting vandalism has worked wonderfully, and I would fault the editor for vandalism. Is making a suboptimal call on a CSD vandalism? — Alalch Emis (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- This is the place to review actions, not processes. If a rouge admin deletes the Main Page and someone else reverts them, would you say "the process has worked wonderfully" and leave it at that? NebY (talk) 19:06, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Speedy deletion is inherently routine. It's speedy.
My understanding is that the version of the article that was nominated for speedy deletion under G10 did not contain the inappropriate claims about the subject as Barkeep49 (properly) removed them. That leaves a garden-variety G10, yes? If yes, then I agree with those who say that declining a speedy deletion isn't within the purview of this board or, really, any board. Is there more here? Mackensen (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- The version that was nominated for G10 did contain inappropriate information about the article subject, such that I think that removal and revdel and/or suppression would be appropriate; that is not in dispute. My contention is that that removal should have happened. Fram's contention is that given the remaining content after that was removed (and which is visible to anyone who can see deleted content) that the article qualified for G10 rather than merely revdel/suppression. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- (ec)Uh, how did you come to that understanding? I nominated it for G10 before Barkeep49 was active on the article, I nominated it again for G10 after they had refused to enact the G10 but before the suppression (I can't check this, there is a possibility that when I was the article after the refusal the suppressed material was still there, but when I saved my second G10 it was already suppressed: I have no access to the article, the oversight logs, ... to check this). Fram (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
(Jesus, that's a lot of edit conflicts) Non-Oversighters can only see Barkeep's very last version, where any reference to sexuality had been removed. It sort of appears that it was this second edit by Barkeep (after Fram's readding of the G10 tag) where Barkeep removed this reference, but I can't be sure. I also can't see what Fram included in the G10 tag; whether it was just a bare {{db-g10}} or if there was more info; in particular, I don't know if Barkeep knew about the made up references, or whether they saw the sexuality material the first time they declined it, and whether they were just looking at it thru a G10 yes/no filter. If A4 hadn't applied, and if I didn't know about the fake referencing, and with the sexuality stuff removed, I think I would have deleted it anyway, but I think it would have been a bit of an IAR deletion. A reasonable case could be made that G10 no longer applied. Based only on the limited info available to non-oversighters, I'd say Barkeep's suppression and tag removal was within admin discretion. If I'm understanding the timeline correctly, not removing the sexuality stuff the first time they declined a G10 was a mistake, but an understandable one, and remedied after it was pointed out. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:33, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Fram, you refer to the article's "explicit claims", to the subject's name and age. Your complaint here reposts the same claims suppressed by Barkeep49. Words fail me. Cabayi (talk) 18:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Whatever. Suppress away, block away, I don't care. Apparently everyone is fine with wikilawyering, editors making constant ill-informed comments, sitting Arbs and UCOC writers letting problematic articles exist, and so on, but I somehow have to discuss this without indicating what the issues are. Please tell me how you would have formulated this incident in a way that showed the extreme obviousness of the G10 issues, but without actually saying anything at all. Go ahead, I'm too disillusioned by all this to really care. Fram (talk)
- WP:ARB, WP:OS, m:Trust and Safety all have mailboxes to handle confidential info. I believe you're acquainted with them? Cabayi (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Whatever. Suppress away, block away, I don't care. Apparently everyone is fine with wikilawyering, editors making constant ill-informed comments, sitting Arbs and UCOC writers letting problematic articles exist, and so on, but I somehow have to discuss this without indicating what the issues are. Please tell me how you would have formulated this incident in a way that showed the extreme obviousness of the G10 issues, but without actually saying anything at all. Go ahead, I'm too disillusioned by all this to really care. Fram (talk)
- (About 7 edit conflicts later): I offer no opinion on the content I can't see, but I want to say that I think this discussion should not be closed yet. Barkeep49 declined a G10. OK, we could quibble whether it amounts to an "action", but there's been an administrative decision that we can review. We could also argue with somewhat more substance about whether it belongs at DRV, but if it does, we should move it there. Wikipedians have a really nasty tendency to terminate discussions because we think they're in the wrong place, when it would be far better to decide where the right place is and then move the discussion over. Let's all stop trying to shut this down as out of scope and instead think it through.In general I'd tend to say that sysops should decline speedy deletions they aren't sure about.—S Marshall T/C 18:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Out of scope for XRV - Declining a CSD is an edit, and as such is outside the purview of Wikipedia:Administrative action review as the "edit" action does not require advanced permissions. The CSD policy already lays out how to handle this situation:
If an editor other than the creator removes a speedy deletion tag in good faith, it should be taken as a sign that the deletion is controversial and another deletion process should be used.
, so the argument remaining would be that the edit was not in good faith - which is a conduct question, outside the remit of this venue. — xaosflux Talk 19:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC) - Now pointless Since everything, including the version that Barkeep49 didn't think was a G10, has been oversighted, practically no-one can advance an opinion anyway. Close this. (It should have been at ANI if anywhere, btw). Black Kite (talk) 19:24, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Having read through this multiple times now, here's my two cents on the substance. FTR, I'm an OS and see everything. First off; if I had my way, I would delete (with the option of suppressing) any and all unsourced content about minors: I think they deserve that level of privary, regardless of whether they post the content themselves. Unfortunately neither policy nor common practice agrees with me. The CSD criteria don't cover all such material, and they are intentionally narrow in what they do cover. Information about a child's sexuality reasonably falls under G10, as it can have the effect of an attack page even if it's not intended that way (and it often is). The rest of the content was not attack content. It's not disparaging in any way. It was covered by G3 as a hoax, since the references were fake; it was borderline covered by A7, again, because the claims to significance were bogus; but determining that required reading the sources. It was also covered by G4, but knowing that required knowing of an AfD at a different title, and it was covered by G5, but knowing that required an SPI. The timeline I see is as follows; Fram tags and blanks at 17:06, Barkeep reverts the tag at 17:16, Fram reverts at 17:18, Barkeep suppresses bad revisions at 17:21, and reverts in a version minus the suppressed content at 17:23. Any argument was after that. I'm going to AGF here that Barkeep was intending to delete and suppress the information about sexuality when Fram reverted him. I also don't believe we expect admins patrolling G10 tags in particular to examine all the sourcing in a tagged article. Given that, I don't see what Barkeep49 did wrong here. He could have done what Liz later did, or checked the sourcing and determined it was a hoax; but we're a volunteer project, and if checking the G10 is all he had time for, we shouldn't be telling him not to do it. The same goes for Fram, too; he could have checked the sources, added multiple CSD tags, and noted with the tags that the references were fake; but he didn't. I suspect this would have been resolved far quicker if Fram had taken a less belligerent approach; I don't think Barkeep would have declined a G3 if it had been politely pointed out that the references were fake. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:37, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I'm also an Oversighter and was about to post a timeline when I saw Vanamonde93 had already done so, and I endorse everything they say. Declining the G10 speedy deletion was correct, as only a small part of the content was plausibly harassing - G10 requires the page to "serve no other purpose" and CSD generally requires there to be no viable alternative than to delete the whole page. Given that the page could be (and Barkeep did) edit the page to remove the supressable content and lave a neutral biography, the requirements of the criterion were not met. We do not require admins assessing speedy deletion requests to evaluate the page to see whether it meets other criteria, nor do we expect them to be aware of every previous AfD and every SPI case, but I would have also declined G3 and A7 nominations for the article as it makes a clear claim of importance, and without a close review of the sources it is not possible to know the page was a hoax meaning it did not meet those criteria either. I also note that I am extremely disappointed that Fram apparently chose to quote inappropriate content (here and in an edit summary at the article), drawing more attention, directly contrary to the WP:BLP policy. Thryduulf (talk) 20:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I quoted in the edit summary the actual contents for which had Barkeep had refused the G10, and had at the time done nothing to remove it or indicated that they were going to. Apparently they did nothing wrong leaving the text in the article, but I have "extremely disappointed" you putting the exact same text they should have instantly deleted in an edit summary. Well, well, what a surprise... Fram (talk) 20:12, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- That´s two times now, Thryduulf, that you try to take revenge for my small role in your failed Arbcom run. I hope there won´t be a third one, as it doesnnt become you. Fram (talk) 20:14, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know where you get the idea that I have, or have had, any desire for "revenge" or anything similar? I told you last time you brought it up that your comments on my arbcom candidacy were completely irrelevant to the matter at hand, the same is true now, and if I ever feel the need to criticise your actions again in the future it wont be revenge then either. I would appreciate it if you would refrain from casting aspersions about my motives in the future. Thryduulf (talk) 20:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Regarding the actual matter at hand, you quoted content you believed to be a BLP violation in an edit summary affirming that you really believed it was a BLP violation. You then quoted the material here after it had been suppressed and you knew it had been suppressed, yes that is extremely disappointing conduct. Thryduulf (talk) 20:35, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Speedy close removal of a CSD tag is not an admin action, nor one requiring any advanced permission. Elli (talk | contribs) 20:40, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Seems like the next uninvolved admin who sees this should consider closing it, rather than commenting further. Fram has received the feedback he was looking for, and things are unnecessarily personal. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
David Gerard's use of rollback at Yat Siu
Bold/IAR close per the emerging consensus on the talk page that this forum is not ready to go live yet. Yes, I'm skeptical of this page as a whole, but I think both the talk page consensus and commonsense confirm this close, and I'll post at AN for review:
|
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Use of rollback on Yat Siu performed by David Gerard (talk · contribs · logs). (Talk:Yat Siu#Where was the consensus to redirect this page to Animoca Brands? and User talk:David Gerard#Talk:Yat Siu#Where was the consensus to redirect this page to Animoca Brands?)
David Gerard used rollback in this edit to revert one of my edits. He also used rollback here and here to revert two edits from IP addresses. Following the suggestion of two editors at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2022 January 4#Yat Siu that the use of rollback should be reviewed in this venue, I am opening this discussion to ask the community whether these uses of rollback complied with WP:ROLLBACKUSE. Cunard (talk) 06:13, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I'm one of the two editors who proposed at DRV that the rollback be reviewed at this forum. It strikes me as straight misuse -- the edits weren't blatant vandalism or spam, and the first rollback was 'straight rollback' with no edit summary. There is a grey area in that the article being restored was quite stubby on a subject matter often checkered by promotionalism. I would myself have been hesitant to see a longstanding -- if unilateral -- redirect restored to create an apparently promotional article, although Cunard is an extremely tenured editor who knows what he's doing, which should have been a sign to pause. That said, even after the switch from straight rollback (clearly inappropriate) to using edit summaries, the edit summary in question was not supported by an actual underlying consensus that either Cunard or anyone at DRV has been able to find, which is...also questionable (if not in XRV's scope as much as the straight rollback). Vaticidalprophet 09:38, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I have undone a previous close of this thread which offered the following closing statement, as it was clearly mistaken in what this page's purpose is:
Wrong venue, rolling back is not a function limited to admins (altho it is also bundled in with the admin tools). This is just an edit war, and an attempt at a discussion via edit summaries which is not ideal. Best way to move forward here is to restore the previous stable state of the article and send it to WP:AfD, which I have now done. Take the behavioral issues -- which are around edit warring not use of admin tools -- to WP:ANI if you really want to air that part out. Herostratus (talk) 09:44, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Regards! Usedtobecool ☎️ 10:04, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Well, that sure sucks. Undoing closes should not be done lightly, User:Usedtobecool. Particularly if you don't exactly know what you're doing. You don't know that this is a good venue, User:Usedtobecool. Because it's a new board. We don't really have case law on that, yet. Herostratus (talk) 11:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Herostratus: it was definitely intended that XRV could also handle other advanced permissions (and currently lists rollback in the nice green box). More generally, speedy closes should be of a higher standard than undoing speedy closes - if the case law is unclear on if something does fall under XRV (and I'm absolutely positive there will be discussions on just that), then it should be discussed first before shuttering discussion Nosebagbear (talk) 11:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Well, that sure sucks. Undoing closes should not be done lightly, User:Usedtobecool. Particularly if you don't exactly know what you're doing. You don't know that this is a good venue, User:Usedtobecool. Because it's a new board. We don't really have case law on that, yet. Herostratus (talk) 11:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Since the action has already been reversed, this thread is moot. WP:ANI is the venue to discuss everything else, such as... this article's history is not the only recent example of David's misuse of rollback (this was seemingly done without even looking, this, this, this). If fact it seems that misuse of rollback is more common than valid use (I only found one or two examples of proper use in the same timeframe). There are also other issues involved here (including citing non-existent consensus, edit-warring and failing to engage in discussion over content issues, and not following policies and normal processes if they can be viewed as "optional" in any way), some of which seem to happen all too frequently in David's contribution history. wjematherplease leave a message... 10:49, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
The bigger issue I see here is the slow edit war by David Gerard. After the redirect was reverted the first couple times, editors should've have either discussed the article on its talk page or sent it straight to AfD, where the broader community could try to find a consensus, instead of reverting it six more times. David Gerard should be reminded that rollback shouldn't be used to edit war. Isabelle 🔔 14:12, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Break
So, here's what I think is happening here. Here, we have a new board -- important board. New thing! Just as with Marbury vs Madison, we're going to have to figure out how this new thing works, where its boundaries are.
So. Anybody can rollback. I can rollback. You can rollback (if you can't, just ask; thousands of non-admins have rollback privileges, and you can too if you're reasonably experienced and sane I think). I don't even hardly use mine, because "restore previous version" works just as well. Rolling back is a nothingburger.
We know it's a nothingburger because regular editors immediately undid it. Deleting, blocking... regular editors can't undo those. That's what this board is for. If it's just (basically) an edit that an admin made, but not (really) using admin tools, it's not for this board.
If people are insistent that we have to resolve the bad behaviors here (I'd let it lie, but whatever), WP:ANI is the place to go. I mean, I mean, three editors (at least) -- User:David Gerard, User:IceWelder, and User:John B123 -- are involved in one side of the edit war, and only [[User:David Gerard] is an admin. Doesn't that make it a bit awkward, to either 1) Deal only with User:David Gerard and not the other two, or 3) include the non-admins for potential scolding or sanction here, even tho they're not admins? And that's not counting the editors on the other side of the argument, who for all I know are behaving badly also.
This whole thing has has been a comedy of errors. It's liable to continue since User:Usedtobecool decided to blow thru the stop signs, but what I suggest is that editors agree that this is not the right venue and to not discuss the non-meta aspects of the situation here, but deal with the merits of the content issues Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yat Siu, and the behavior issues (if you feel the need to) by opening a thread at WP:ANI.
As to the Marbury vs Madison issue -- what, exactly, are the parameters, limits, powers, and uses of this board as opposed to ANI and other boards -- that is worth discussing, IMO.
It might be that the Wikipedia has been missing a kind of "Here'a an admin we don't like, let's look thru his history and see what's what, even tho he's not actually misusing any admin tools" board. Maybe! In fact, I personally think we should, which is why I support admin re-confirmation (admin recall if you will). That's never going to happen, but not because it's not popular. So, I see can editors wanting to take the opportunity to turn this board into that sort of a venue. Should we? I dunno, but that's whats really on the the table here, I think. Herostratus (talk) 11:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Herostratus has, for some curious reason, decided to split his personal referendum on the purpose of XRV-slash-yelling at Usedtobecool for listening to the explicit stated purpose of XRV across multiple fora. This is the highest-profile one, so I'll just directly copy my post on his talk: "Trying to precisely define the scope of a new board is an important, even laudable thing for the exact reasons you note. That would be why XRV has been explicitly defined from the very outset as including non-admin-specific permissions such as rollback (see
specific use of an advanced permission, including the admin tools
and explicit reference topermissions granted at WP:PERM
at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2021 review/Proposals, repeated at WT:XRV, plus repeated reference at WT:XRV to permissions all over the adminship scale) -- specifically to avoid misunderstandings like the one you just made. (Substantial modern-era precedent also exists for the reviewing of rollback specifically for admins specifically, e.g. the GiantSnowman arbcom case.)" I am unsure that there is a point to this...point-making?...in general, but inasmuch as there is, it strikes me as a fundamental disagreement to "XRV is the place to discuss disputed use of rollback", which is stated right up there in XRVPURPOSE, affirmed in the discussions that led to the creation of XRV itself, and consistent with pre-XRV discussion on both admins and non-admins using rollback. Vaticidalprophet 11:16, 5 January 2022 (UTC) - Per the top of this page:
Administrative action review may be used: ... to review an individual action of someone using one of the following advanced permissions ... Rollback
. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC) - Not everyone can rollback. I explicitly never had it until it was given to me as part of sysop. So that initial statement that anyone can do it is wrong and because it has to be given out at PERM and its use is not covered by another review board, its use, per the RfC which established this forum, should be reviewed here when there may be an improper use. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- And regarding the argument that it is such because you can just ask for it - large numbers of individuals have rollback requests declined at PERM. In fact, in terms of numbers of declines, it'll be one of the highest. Nosebagbear (talk) 15:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Herostratus: How is making a single edit on an article edit warring? --John B123 (talk) 15:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Wrong venue. This isn't an admin action. WP:ANI is where this would belong. This board is exclusively for review of admin actions that require the bit, not just any action an admin takes. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown:, why do you think that? The close of the RfC that created XRV specifically notes Finally, we note that the process as proposed is not just about the evaluation of administrative actions, but about all advanced permissions, and thus also applies to non-administrators - it's specifically not just for admin actions that require the bit. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Then I stand corrected. This is a new board, and as you can see, there is already a lot of confusion about the scope. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Do you think there's wording in the header that could help clarify this? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:37, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I initially was confused by this myself. We should definitely make it more clear that this board is not just for reviewing actions by administrators, but the use of any advanced permissions in general, which includes many non-admins. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 17:58, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Then I stand corrected. This is a new board, and as you can see, there is already a lot of confusion about the scope. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:11, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown:, why do you think that? The close of the RfC that created XRV specifically notes Finally, we note that the process as proposed is not just about the evaluation of administrative actions, but about all advanced permissions, and thus also applies to non-administrators - it's specifically not just for admin actions that require the bit. Nosebagbear (talk) 16:21, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- My apologies to Cunard for the use of the rollback button here - being editorial, the edits should have been by loading the previous version, editing and saving, the desired effect. I'll endeavour to be more mindful of this in future - David Gerard (talk) 16:32, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- It was okay regardless. In BRD pertaining to restoring redirects back into articles, when reverted, one needs to discuss on the talk page. If the restorer doesn't agree with an edit summary they can seek an explanation on article talk. If the reverted/rollbacked restorer thinks that the summary was not substantive and that WP:STONEWALLING could be taking place, they still need to discuss it with the reverter first, and not edit war by reverting the revert. After a revert of the revert had occurred, restoring the redirect needs no further explanation. — Alalch Emis (talk) 16:39, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
Formatted discussion
- Endorse. The use of rollback in the instances cited in the appeal was not inconsistent with WP:ROLLBACKUSE because the rollback was used to revert
edits where the reason for reverting is absolutely clear
. The reason was absolutely clear because this is clearly a dispute about whether restoring the redirect is warranted. In the given situation, analyzing the edit history, one can not think anything other than David Gerrard being of a view that the redirect should not be restored and acting on this by reverting—using rollback or not, under these circumstances, it doesn't matter. — Alalch Emis (talk) 16:30, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- For me, the only tentative problem here is reverting a single edit using rollback. The meaning of rollback is being entrusted with the added convenience of reverting multiple, successive, edits where an edit summary is not necessary, in a single click. I would disallow using rollback to revert only one edit. Strictly. But in ROLLBACKUSE this is not even mentioned. So this is just my subjective view. Edit: @David Gerard: acting in the spirit of your apology, you could propose or support this addition to the guideline governing rollbacking; I really believe you'd agree that this is the root problem. Edit2: actually I'd disable rollbacking in the software when only one change can be rolled back. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think more instructions on subtle differences to the various editing interfaces is unlikely to substantially help anything in the general case, and only make discussions on pages such as this much longer without really helping a lot - David Gerard (talk) 17:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. See the part of my comment starting with "Edit2" though :) — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- The vast majority of actual vandalism is done with a single edit, often to many different articles consecutively. It would be incredibly counterproductive to prevent rollback from functioning based on requiring multiple changes. I'm relatively certain that such a change would never gain consensus. The litmus is, and should remain, whether or not the vandalism is unequivocal.--John Cline (talk) 21:05, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. See the part of my comment starting with "Edit2" though :) — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:10, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think more instructions on subtle differences to the various editing interfaces is unlikely to substantially help anything in the general case, and only make discussions on pages such as this much longer without really helping a lot - David Gerard (talk) 17:09, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- For me, the only tentative problem here is reverting a single edit using rollback. The meaning of rollback is being entrusted with the added convenience of reverting multiple, successive, edits where an edit summary is not necessary, in a single click. I would disallow using rollback to revert only one edit. Strictly. But in ROLLBACKUSE this is not even mentioned. So this is just my subjective view. Edit: @David Gerard: acting in the spirit of your apology, you could propose or support this addition to the guideline governing rollbacking; I really believe you'd agree that this is the root problem. Edit2: actually I'd disable rollbacking in the software when only one change can be rolled back. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse - no actual misuse of tools requiring special privileges. I can see Cunard's POV here, but the problem was too many editors editing too quickly: the normal comedy of cross-purposes that afflicts editors without elevated privileges. — Charles Stewart (talk) 02:11, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
- overturn I disagree that things were "absolutely clear". New sources had been added, promotional text removed. Rollback shouldn't be used in such a case--it remains unclear why the editor thinks the edit should be undone. I'd claim that the later claims of "previous consensus" (which as far as I can tell have never been explained) are also problematic because they appear to be false (or at least no one seems to know what it is referring to). But this is the wrong forum for that. Hobit (talk) 05:31, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
- Overturn. Per my comment above, this was a clear misuse of rollback (
"Use of standard rollback for... reverting good-faith changes which you happen to disagree with – is likely to be considered misuse of the tool"
; in addition, rollback edits are marked as minor and this was obviously not a minor edit). The other issues should be discussed at ANI. wjematherplease leave a message... 13:56, 6 January 2022 (UTC) - FWIW, I already said I shouldn't have used rollback here, and apologised and will endeavour to do better in future. I guess that's the perpetrator saying it shouldn't have been done. Was there a specific desired outcome? - David Gerard (talk) 23:26, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
- While not rollback related, I know I'd appreciate you explaining what you meant by previous consensus when you reverted after the rollback. I believe you've been asked in at least three places (twice with pings and once on your talk page) and I don't think you've responded to any of them. Hobit (talk) 02:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
- Agree the comment above. The "perpetrator" of the potentially incorrect use of rollback has apologised and said they'll do better in future. If this was AN or ANI (or even just usertalk) that would be the end of the matter. However in deference to this being a new noticeboard, can anyone please point to what further outcomes might be expected here? -- Euryalus (talk) 23:47, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
- The only "future outcome" that I anticipate, and hope to see, is David Gerard never being seen here again for using rollback in a manner inconsistent with policy (and that would be a great outcome). While this venue for review only evaluates tool usage in singularity, against existing policy, it does not, in and of itself, desire the role of a sanctioning body. Nevertheless, if the same user is repeatedly found, in future singular instances, to use the same tool contrary to policy, grounds may arise to impose sanctions which would necessarily have to be sought elsewhere, for example: ANI or ARBCOM. In so far as the performer admitting an error was made while expressing the good faith intention not to repeat the error, I would consider the matter resolved and, if not for the tentative requirement that an uninvolved administrator perform the close, might/probably would have closed it myself. Nevertheless, I don't see where the closer could possibly find difficulty with closing the discussion as it stands. I don't know if this helps in answering your question, but it's my best answer (if I understood your question properly) in accordance with my understanding of this forum. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 01:03, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, yes.
Two things in passing: I don't know if the RfC actually mandated this but closes shouldn't be restricted to admins only, especially if the outcome doesn't require admin tools. Any experienced and uninvolved editor should be fine. Also the listed requirement for 7 days of discussion seems a bit long. Appreciate this doesn't seem to be being applied (eg. the thread below this closed in less than a day?) but some "unless resolved earlier" wording might be worthwhile.I see these have been discussed on the talkpage. Can't say I agree with the reasoning there, but this thread isn't the place for it. -- Euryalus (talk) 01:40, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, yes.
- The only "future outcome" that I anticipate, and hope to see, is David Gerard never being seen here again for using rollback in a manner inconsistent with policy (and that would be a great outcome). While this venue for review only evaluates tool usage in singularity, against existing policy, it does not, in and of itself, desire the role of a sanctioning body. Nevertheless, if the same user is repeatedly found, in future singular instances, to use the same tool contrary to policy, grounds may arise to impose sanctions which would necessarily have to be sought elsewhere, for example: ANI or ARBCOM. In so far as the performer admitting an error was made while expressing the good faith intention not to repeat the error, I would consider the matter resolved and, if not for the tentative requirement that an uninvolved administrator perform the close, might/probably would have closed it myself. Nevertheless, I don't see where the closer could possibly find difficulty with closing the discussion as it stands. I don't know if this helps in answering your question, but it's my best answer (if I understood your question properly) in accordance with my understanding of this forum. Best regards.--John Cline (talk) 01:03, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
Indefinite block of Desertambition by Ymblanter
ENDORSED | |
This has been here for more than 36 hours, and there is a clear, overwhelming consensus to endorse this action. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:25, 10 January 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- block of indefinite duration on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Neo-Nazi Propaganda and South AfricaDesertambition (talk · contribs · logs · block log) performed by Ymblanter (talk · contribs · logs) (User talk:Ymblanter#I performed it myself, no need to discuss with myself)
possibly controversial block for community review Ymblanter (talk) 11:35, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- (ec) I have just blocked Desertambition for accusing their opponents in neo-nazi propaganda in this AN thread. This not the first time and not the first venue they raise the issue, and I do not have in principle problems with the issue being discussed, however, I dfo not think we can tolerate neo-Nazi propaganda accusations without very specific and targeted diffs showing that this is indeed neo-Nazi propaganda. I, in the same thread, told the user in no uncertain terms that this must stop, and it they do not I block them. They doubled down and I blocked them. Since the block can be seen as controversial I prese4nt it for the community review.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:40, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- If every possibly controversial action is brought here, it will kill the forum by choking it with unworthy cases. Wait for a substantive objection or complaint that you can’t answer to their satisfaction. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Last time the block which I have made escalated to ArbCom within, I believe, 8 hours, and nobody at ANI was not even interested in my explanations. This is something I would like to avoid this time. The blocked user already disagreed with the block.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ok.
- It’s his first block. Why is it indefinite, and not, say, 8 days? SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:11, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Half of his edits, over 7 years, were in the last week. I think it is the “indefinite” part only that seems harsh. I think WP:CBD could give better advice to you. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:19, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- I haven’t found a particularly singularly offensive post (a link to one would be helpful), but he has been working himself into a frenzy. I think escalating warnings and then escalating blocks measured in days would have been better. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:27, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Last time the block which I have made escalated to ArbCom within, I believe, 8 hours, and nobody at ANI was not even interested in my explanations. This is something I would like to avoid this time. The blocked user already disagreed with the block.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- If every possibly controversial action is brought here, it will kill the forum by choking it with unworthy cases. Wait for a substantive objection or complaint that you can’t answer to their satisfaction. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Unworthy nomination. There is no evidence of dispute over your block. This is meant to be a high level review forum, not a water cooler. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:39, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- This could be a possible outcome.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:41, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Blocking policy at WP:WHYBLOCK says "After placing a potentially controversial block, it is a good idea to make a note of the block at the administrators' incidents noticeboard for peer review." I think it's perfectly reasonable for Ymblanter to have chosen to bring it here instead.--John Cline (talk) 14:45, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse I think the right thing was done for the right reason, WP:NOTHERE is absolutely correct. You cannot go complaining about alleged racial bias in Wikipedia without specific links and then go and compare a whole ethnicity to the Nazis. Even on the RM discussion at Talk:King William's Town, they were happy to promote their own sources but accused those presenting sources supporting the argument against a move as "cherrypick"-ing. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 11:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Respect SmokeyJoe's view but disagree. Obviously Desertambition considers the block unfair, so it's not quite true that there's no evidence of a dispute. Mildly, we also just had a day and half debate over a single use of rollback, so am not sure why an indef block is not worth considering. On the specific topic: the block looks fine to me in the context of Desertambition's previous disruptive comments, and their general approach as outlined by The C of E in the post above. But other views welcome. -- Euryalus (talk) 11:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment Desertambition has been repeatedly warned about this, but now claims
I was not told I would be blocked
11:35, 8 January 2022
- 22:43, 31 December 2021 by Toddy1
- 17:45, 5 January 2022 by Vanamonde93
- 09:32, 8 January 2022 by Ymblanter
- By the way, I know how he/she feels. I once got a DIGWUREN warning and was told that if I did the thing I was warned for again I would get an instant indefinite block. But unlike Desertambition, I was willing to listen. -- Toddy1 (talk) 13:43, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment - My feeling is that a long block is justified, but an indefinite block for what appears to be just unapologetically uncivil behaviour might be excessive. What about a 12-month block? Running into a brick wall and having to face it for a year is a thing that can force attitue readjustment. If s/he is still committed to BATTLEGROUND editing with all incivility guns blazing a year from now, we can reach for the indefinite block then.
- This is not a suggestion that the indef block is contrary to policy, rather I am wondering if something like 'endorse defensible indef block but shorten to a year' would be a good outcome to this XAR? — Charles Stewart (talk) 14:02, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment -- I prefer indefinite blocks over time-limited blocks, but only when the block notice is accompanied by a clear explanation for what the user needs to do to (in their unblock request, presumably) to become unblocked. This user is obviously frustrated and doesn't know how to express the frustration in a productive manner. There may be a few points that the user is making which WP would do well to consider, but obviously the choice of bludgeoning and forum shopping is doing the argument no favors. A clear explanation of what the next steps should be would be helpful as it may feel to the user right now that indefinite=infinite. jps (talk) 15:10, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse Desertambition appears to be here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and has gone entirely too far in attacking other editors they get into disagreements with. I don't doubt some articles in this topic area have issues with things like bias, but the way Desertambition went about it, accusing their opponents of being nazis (and implicitly calling an entire ethnic group such) is fundamentally unacceptable. Their recent behavior has not been compatible with a collaborative encyclopedia with a global base of editors and readers. If I were in Ymblanter's shoes, I would have blocked them too, but I'm not sure I would have gone for an indef immediately. That said, there should be a path given for this user to be unblocked and return to editing, provided they are willing to abide by our policies. It's up to them if they are willing to do so. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 15:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse — Desertambition had been insisting on renaming towns in South Africa, per the dispute reviewed in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive339#Bias Present in Articles Regarding Renamed Places in South Africa. The tone of his words there suggested he was on Wikipedia to right great wrongs. That view is also supported by a look at his user page. I wouldn't support unblock unless he expresses willingness to give up his crusade, which he could still do, by a proper unblock request. A time-limited block would just be postponing the inevitable. EdJohnston (talk) 16:32, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse Both use of this NB and the block itself. Screaming 'Nazi' is unlikely to lead to civil consensus in a contentious area that has apartheid as a backdrop.Slywriter (talk) 16:55, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse. A time-limited block will not serve here, as Desertambition was repeatedly told their conduct was problematic, and they didn't course-correct. As Toddy1 notes, I left a warning myself, telling them that they needed to abide by both our procedural and behavioral guidelines. I don't think they should be unblocked until they commit to that. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:10, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Moot - If you don't have at least a few people complaining (besides the blocked party), then it shouldn't be here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:23, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse: the indef block was the most preventative action per Bilorv.
Overturn (and convert to a long block) per Charles Stewart. A long block as opposed to an indefinite block seems sufficiently preventative./struck prev. as not what I really think upon reflection and reading all the others' comments/ — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC) - Endorse: the dispute here seems to be that the block was indefinite. To consider this an infinitely more stringent block than, say, a one month block is to make the common confusion between "indefinite" and "infinite". The indefinite block can be easier to appeal than long time-limited blocks. The key is that time-limited blocks allow for a user to simply wait out their allotted time and then resume the unacceptable behaviour. Here, the behaviour was not acceptable and the user showed no signs that they would not continue it in the future, so what we need for an unblock is some evidence that the user will not continue the behaviour and is interested in building an encyclopedia. That could take 24 hours, much better than a year-long block whose appeals are declined. This being said, I do sympathise with the user as the internet does contain a huge amount of white nationalist propaganda about South Africa, I've not seen anywhere where they accuse specific individuals of inserting/supporting white nationalist material and their heated Afrikaner comment appeared not to properly convey their actual opinion. I've given them some advice that I feel was missing. — Bilorv (talk) 18:09, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Comment/observation I've been editing articles on Rhodesia and the Apartheid-era South African security regime. The South African articles are generally pretty good and reflect the recent literature, which indicates that Wikipedia doesn't have a systematic problem here. The same unfortunately can't be said for articles on Rhodesia, many of which repeat blatantly racist clap trap. As a result, Desertambition's concerns may have some merit, but the way they have gone about raising this is clearly unhelpful. Regarding the process applying to this review, I really, really, don't like the idea of admins self-reporting a use of the admin tools for review unless concerns have been raised about it. Nick-D (talk) 21:56, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- I already mentioned this here, but last time someone had concerns about my use of admin tools, I was taken to ANI with the message "either you unblock now or I take you to Arbcom to remove the tools", and in 8 hours (which were mostly my nighttime) I was taken to Arbcom notwithstanding. This is an experience I would like to avoid in the future. If consensus is that this is not appropriate venue for self-reporting AND its use is not obligatory, I will not take any actions which could be seen as even remotely controversial.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:14, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse The block seems entirely consistent with policy and well within administrator discretion. More importantly it is a good idea. HighInBC Need help? Just ask. 22:49, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse I'm perplexed by the idea some people put forward above that a time-limited but exceedingly long block would be better in some way. If you are blocked indefinitely, all you need to do to be unblocked is to demonstrate that you understand the problem, and undertake convincingly that it won't happen again. You coukd be unblocked within a few days if you do that. A time-limited block is identical of course, except that you have the option of not accepting that there was a problem and not undertaking not to act in the same way again. Let it time out, and you can resume editing after a few days/weeks. But a year? If you want to edit here, you will request unblock before a limit like that has expired (hell, the standard offer for banned users is six months), or you'll create a sock and hope that nobody notices. Telling someone that they're on the bench for a year isn't helpful - better to tell them what was wrong, what they need to change, and that they won't be allowed back until they change it, then welcome them with open arms if they agree to do that. Girth Summit (blether) 00:17, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- I think this is probably misunderstanding of indefinite vs. time-limited blocks and how experienced admins (should) use them. It sounds to someone who doesn't have a lot of experience like the equivalent of a life sentence, so a yearlong block sounds less draconian. When actually the opposite is true. I've lifted an indef after just hours because the person said, "Oh. I didn't realize it was that serious a thing. Sorry, I've read the policy now and I'll be more careful." valereee (talk) 00:35, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- This is exactly what I wanted to express in the first paragraph of my comment, but much better put. The key is that blocks aim to prevent specific problematic behaviour, not to punish people. — Bilorv (talk) 01:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse The reason for indefinite blocks (rather than time-limited) for users who don't seem to be willing/able to get what they're doing wrong is that in order to get unblocked, the user must show they understand the reasons they were blocked and how to avoid being disruptive in future. Time-limited blocks don't do this; editors can simply wait them out without making any behavioral changes. Indefinite does not mean infinite. valereee (talk) 00:23, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse Ymblanter's decision to indef. screaming or calling someone a Neo-Nazi without cogent proof to substantiate this, is an egregious violation of WP:PA. The editor themselves are WP:NOTHERE as they basically are engaging in WP:TE. Furthermore I’m echoing Valereee. Celestina007 (talk) 01:36, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, endorse. The need is to protect Desertambition's targets and prevent further disruption, and this sanction is an appropriate and proportional means of doing so. We need an environment of collegiality and camaraderie so we can work effectively together.—S Marshall T/C 12:37, 9 January 2022 (UTC)
Scottywong, dubious vandalism block, questionable use of RevDel
RevisionDeletion
A few days ago I made a post at ACN regarding the reported death of an ArbCom-banned user, which had been reported at Wikipediocracy. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't have made such a report, since if the user is banned there shouldn't be much to do even if they are deceased. However, on this occasion I notified ArbCom because the banned user in question had still been (allegedly) active with sockpuppets, and on at least one recent occasion, attempted to manipulate an administrator during a case request via email. Within minutes of making the post, it was removed by another user (not the subject of this report) with an automated anti-vandalism tool. I assumed this was a false positive, and so I reverted this removal with an explanation in the edit summary, basically saying "let ArbCom see this and decide what to do with it, if anything". The post was subsequently removed a second time by an arbitrator, who claimed that the report on Wikpediocracy which prompted my post was "clearly a troll". I was content to leave the matter at that; I trust an arbitrator's judgement and if they believe that the report had no merit, that would've been perfectly fine. Better safe than sorry. Unfortunately, that wasn't the end of it, because administrator Scottywong subsequently RevisionDeleted both of the edits that contained my initial post, despite there being no reason to do so. My understanding is that RevDel should only be used for severely inappropriate vandalism or copyright infringements, of which my post was neither. I therefore do not believe that this use of RevDel was appropriate or supported by policy. But it didn't stop there, either (see below). 2601:18C:8B82:9E0:0:0:0:E0E5 (talk) 18:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC) Block
In addition to their questionable use of RevisionDeletion, Scottywong also blocked me for "vandalism". In reading the policy page on vandalism, it says in no uncertain terms that vandalism is a deliberate attempt to harm or damage Wikipedia or its operations. There is no way that any reasonable person could come to the conclusion that my report was a deliberate attempt to harm Wikipedia. I appealed the block, with the crux of the rationale being that I failed to see how my post was vandalism. It was declined by a different admin with an evasive answer that didn't answer the question at all. I pinged the reviewing admin asking for clarification, which never received a response despite the admin having edited since. I feel that this block for "vandalism" over something that was anything but was dubious, and, although it has since expired, would like additional feedback and perhaps a solid explanation as to how my actions were a "deliberate attempt to disrupt Wikipedia" if people feel that they indeed were such. 2601:18C:8B82:9E0:0:0:0:E0E5 (talk) 18:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
|
Draft:Ashanti traditional buildings
While the consensus of scope of this board remains under discussion, there is consensus that this board should not replace existing review forums, namely DRV and MRV. The review of the speedy deletion should be reviewed at DRV. If there are behavioral concerns beyond that XRV is also not the right place, that would be ANI or some other conduct forum. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:46, 9 February 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I just saw this article at CAT:CSD tagged with {{db-g12}}
. As the Earwig tool reported "75% violation likely" I concluded the G12 tagging was correct and deleted it. However, I've since discovered that there has been a dispute between Fram and Jimfbleak on this draft which I was unaware of at the point at which I deleted it, making this deletion (apparently) controversial. In general, I take action on G12 deletions as soon as I spot them, as I believe they can cause legal repercussions to Wikipedia if they are not immediately deleted. So I would like the community to conclude whether all the administrator actions taken so far have been appropriate. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:43, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Fram, with due respect, I never suggested we "fool the Earwig copyvio tool". I said I'll rewrite the article again and write everything in my own words. The original creator copied his sources too closely but I'm going to liquidate those edits and replace them with more original edits. I have given my email for the text to start again. (Kwesi Yema (talk) 10:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC))
|
- Jimfbleak's admin action here was inappropriate. The draft should not have been restored and "The tool will advise you if the level of matches are acceptable" is not good advice. Content that is largely copyright violation should not even be refunded by email, because the correct thing to do is not to rewrite the content, but to start from scratch. Taking a piece of text from elsewhere and changing it is a recipe for creating close paraphrasing and other types of copyvios. You must write each sentence from scratch in your own words for it to be your own writing. In some sense, Earwig gives a lower bound (apart from quotes and sources that copy Wikipedia), as there can always be sources that it does not have access to which material could be copied from. But 75% does not mean "it's 75% of a copyright violation", and 0% or 9% can still be a copyvio. Something either is or is not a copyright violation as we define it on Wikipedia. — Bilorv (talk) 13:18, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse Ritchie333's action. Copyvio is copyvio, no matter in which namespace it is, and should always be removed at sight, either via removal of the infringing text and revision deletion or if it beyond saving, G12. Jimfbleak's restoration here was a inappropriate action. Had the editor rewritten the text we would A) be in danger of close paraphrasing, as noted by Bilorv above, and B) the infringing content would still be there in the page history, meaning it would still need cleaning up. -- Asartea Talk | Contribs 13:25, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- Once again, we have a thread that is currently indistinguishable from ANI. If that just can't be prevented, then there is no point in having a separate noticeboard. I was under the impression that this board would never have an outcome other than "admin action endorsed" or "admin action overturned". If that is true, all the other stuff about Jimfbleak, Fram, and Kwesi Yema does not belong here. Someone who really cares whether or not this board takes spark should do some clerking. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:25, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, would that mean that Ritchie's redeletion belongs here, but discussion about Jimfbleaks actions belongs at ANI? That would not be a good solution either. Or that we can discuss Jimfbleaks deletion/undeletion, but not the accompanying advice they left? I'm not quite clear on which parts you see as acceptable here and which not, but if it would result in dividing the discussion of the same situation over different noticeboards then it doesn't seem workable to me. Fram (talk) 14:44, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- The whole mess probably belongs at ANI. This board, in bullet number one, is for review of a single admin action. This is just a typical ANI free-for-all with a smaller audience. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:46, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- Also (and I'm less confident about this), this is about a deletion, which this board is explicitly not supposed to handle. DRV is that way --> --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:48, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- The best part is even if the admin action isn't endorsed by a smaller audience, it still has to go to ANI. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:49, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- The whole mess probably belongs at ANI. This board, in bullet number one, is for review of a single admin action. This is just a typical ANI free-for-all with a smaller audience. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:46, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- Floquenbeam, would that mean that Ritchie's redeletion belongs here, but discussion about Jimfbleaks actions belongs at ANI? That would not be a good solution either. Or that we can discuss Jimfbleaks deletion/undeletion, but not the accompanying advice they left? I'm not quite clear on which parts you see as acceptable here and which not, but if it would result in dividing the discussion of the same situation over different noticeboards then it doesn't seem workable to me. Fram (talk) 14:44, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
Administrative complaint Fixed
Greetings,
User:C.Fred - Wikipedia
Ignored the sources provided and claimed the edits were dubious. Then stated that the edit made is not what the person listed is most known for, while the link itself also provides information about electrical plating, which is not very known at all, with several other factors involved. This claim is self serving, based on the fallacy of popularity and fallacy of authority, that dictates what he is most known for according to the self governed wikipedia page itself by administrators. It is therefore also the fallacy of ignorance.
This user was reported to the administrative board, which was followed by a message from the user GiantSnowman, stating that the previous message that I posted was a test. Not sure what that meant, so I posted again with a title to minimize any further errors (did not originally add a title, by accident), which I was then blocked with "Your 'complaint' is baseless and is not going to be heard. You don't even mention the article in question! If you post it again I am going to block you for trolling ok? GiantSnowman 21:43, 27 February 2022 (UTC)"
The article is provided by the username in their editing history, at the given time that was listed in the complaint. This is obviously an excuse by GiantSnowman, or in other words, playing games, to minimize truthful, honest, and worthy observation of the matter, showing unethical, dishonest, and dubious behavior by this administrator. The administrator also did not claim why the complaint was baseless for it to be solved, and simply blocked the claim with the excuse of "trolling", which is the ad hominem fallacy. Due to these listed fallacies, there is "truth" to be found that demonstrates from this given point, the unethicacy and illegitimacy of both administrators and their ability to fit the necessary role on the site.
2607:FB91:13A1:621B:2F4F:7E59:C081:8FC6 (talk) 22:33, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
Discussion
- What is your involvement in this, 2607:FB91:13A1:621B:2F4F:7E59:C081:8FC6? — Charles Stewart (talk) 22:37, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- NB. I think this is about Shemitz (surname), per the edits by 72.76.208.18 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) -- TNT (talk • she/her) 22:41, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
*If the edit in question is this, it is a normal undo, not requiring special permissions. You should ask for an explanation on the talk page. — Charles Stewart (talk) 22:45, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Endorse action of GiantSnowman but recommend halving block length to 24h. This is going to sound harsh, but this is generally how things work on Wikipedia. If you escalate normal editing conflicts to involve admins, your get the sharp end of our editing policy. While a 48h bloc seems kind of long for what I understand is a first administrative action, it's within admin prerogative. I recommend that you wait out the block and then raise your query again on the talk page. — Charles Stewart (talk) 22:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
No problem, I did not notice that factor in the discussion to move upon that understanding in previous discussions (obviously). Thank you for being polite/kind. What steps do you recommend to add the desired content and in what framework where it is appropriate for Wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:13A1:621B:2F4F:7E59:C081:8FC6 (talk) 23:03, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ask at Wikipedia:Teahouse if my suggestion about raising the matter on the talk page seems unclear. — Charles Stewart (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- Speedy close indecipherable complaint - if the complaining user cannot bother to provide minimal context in the form of diffs or even the title of the article/page where the administrative action occurred, I don't see how it's possible to treat this complaint seriously. We can guess what edits/actions they're talking about, but why bother? This seems to have become the place where anonymous editors extend their trolling session. —ScottyWong— 23:29, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- While I sympathise with reacting to cases like these with exasperation since they mean more work for our already overworked admin body, it's possible to approach them more constructively. Wikipedia says it welcomes edits from anyone, but actually going ahead and doing that for an anon account is full of risks. Here, while the edit notice for AN/I is full of scary banners, none of them actually explain that raising a complaint on AN/I is potentially dangerous and shouldn't be taken unless you dot your policy 'i's and cross your policy 't's. Perhaps if the new user experience was better here, the behaviour that comes across to you as trolling wouldn't happen. — Charles Stewart (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
I completely agree with the last comment by Chalst, as the circumstances comes across as gaslighting and the ban was not only unnecessary but unprofessional. However, I over reacted by a mile, so I apologize. Coming from my background, you'd think I would show more respect towards those that support my family heritage, let alone knowledge itself. I will do further research to provide a better contribution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:13A1:621B:2F4F:7E59:C081:8FC6 (talk) 00:01, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
+ I do not know what you are referring to with the banners, but okay. I didn't see any banners.
I will not be replying moving forward to this unless required, and will make an account since anonymity creates issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:13A1:621B:2F4F:7E59:C081:8FC6 (talk) 00:12, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
FYI, no attempt to discuss this matter with me before coming here. Both IPs geolocate to the same rough area so there is probably meat puppetry here, if not sockpuppetry. There is nothing against me or @C.Fred: here. Any issues ping me, I'm not watching. GiantSnowman 11:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have taken no administrative actions toward this IP or at Shemitz (surname) or Reuben Shemitz. My revert at the latter article was a standard revert where an (unregistered) editor added information that could not be verified against the cited source. —C.Fred (talk) 20:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
In reference to the comment about Sockpuppetry, if you check the actual location of the IP, you will find it is located in an office in Jersey City, specifically a family business. I will not make any further comments from here. I have moved on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shemitz (talk • contribs) 22:44, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
I recommend being inclusive of new members, where rules are not very clear, especially when you are unable to be reached due to your own ban that you created (snowman).
If you would like the other person's email, please let me know. This person is not with me, so you will find the IP's to be separate.
Have a good day, unless further notified.
Regards, Shemitz — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shemitz (talk • contribs) 22:51, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Given that the environment seems to objectively foster negativity, where individuality but a lack of truth exists, instead of positivity, where self reflection, empathy, and truth exists, I have went ahead and found the appropriate source for policies and guidelines after 10 minutes of research (which I doubt at least half of Wikipedia users have done once)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_policies_and_guidelines
Let me know if there is anything I can do moving forward to be a better representative that brings positive value to the community moving forward. Thank you for having me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shemitz (talk • contribs) 23:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- While Wikipedia certainly has cultural problems, I think your diagnoses are far from the mark. Central to the way we maintain Wikipedia's function is Wikipedia:Assume good faith, which is a guideline you are not really following. Please take this chance to adjust your approach, and I advise you to exercise more caution when you criticise others. It is easy to reach false conclusions about what is going on in an unfamiliar environment. — Charles Stewart (talk) 00:11, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
I never said Wikipedia has bad faith.
I have nothing left to say. Take care. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shemitz (talk • contribs) 00:19, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
I don't want to start a pattern of wiki-nitpicking complaints, but this one doesn't seem to bother to try to explain anything or make any coherent assertions. GiantSnowman's block was a mild one and came after a friendly warning and looks fine to me. North8000 (talk) 20:28, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
Block of Ytpks896
This noticeboard's stated purpose is reviewing the use of administrator tools. The block has been deemed appropriate by a CU, and only CUs are able to make that determination here. I believe any discussion of NinjaRobotPirate's responsiveness, or of Uanfala's tone, is out of scope. There's no consensus on whose behavior was inappropriate anyway. And regardless of all that, NRP has said they will be more responsive going forward. So let's please spend our time more productively. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:58, 14 March 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Block
- Block on Ytpks896 (talk · contribs · logs · block log) performed by NinjaRobotPirate (talk · contribs · logs) (discussion with blocking admin)
- Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1092#Disruptive_user_keeps_reverting_without_valid_reason
A sock-puppet investigation was opened against Ytpks896 in 2020, but it was dismissed because the evidence was insufficient. Fast forward a year and a half, NinjaRobotPirate blocks Ytpks896 as a suspected puppet of the same sockmaster, without providing evidence (the admin also has CU privileges but the block was not a CU block). I asked them on their talk page about the evidence used, but after a brief exchange I was simply told to "go away".
Why is this a problem? The policy requires sufficient evidence that would stand up to scrutiny
, but no evidence at all has been provided here. I know that sometimes admins block suspected socks on sight without indicating what evidence was used, but my understanding is that this is acceptable only for really obvious cases and when the suspected sock is a relatively new user. If a user has been around for two years, made several thousand edits, and had a previous socking allegation (that was backed up by a lengthy presentation of evidence) dismissed, then they certainly deserve better than to be suddenly blocked without explanation. – Uanfala (talk) 15:49, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've advised this user to use the unblock template after they posted a help message asking another admin to review the situation. Not reviewed the block enough to provide an opinion on this yet. Dreamy Jazz talk to me | my contributions 23:37, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- [7]
"Go away. I don't like passive-aggressive people. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)"
is a WP:ADMINACCT failure. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:05, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- On reviewing the merits of the block, and subsequent handling of the situation by NinjaRobotPirate, I performed a checkuser of Ytpks896—I believe the behavioural evidence and legitimate concerns of sockpuppetry exceed the grounds for checking per policy. On reviewing the technical data, I discovered that Ytpks896 is Confirmed to a number of previously confirmed sockpuppet accounts. I endorse NinjaRobotPirate's initial block, but would remind them that they are required by policy to "
justify their actions when requested
". For clarity, the route of appeal for a checkuser block is detailed at Wikipedia:CheckUser#CheckUser blocks -- TNT (talk • she/her) 01:04, 10 March 2022 (UTC)- That would seem to be the logical outcome, then. I don't believe Uanfala's tone reached the level where not responding at that comparatively early comms stage was warranted (though for clarity, it was also not a great way of asking for review), but obviously the block judgement was reasonable. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:13, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- If someone politely asks me for evidence, I respond much differently than if some random person comes to my talk page with outright accusations of blocking people randomly for no reason, which is an aspersion. But it looks like this is considered acceptable behavior on English Wikipedia. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 12:03, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Thanks to TNT for re-examining the block and doing a CU: that makes the issue moot, and the case is over as far as I'm concerned. Just a few notes though. I agree that there was a failure of ADMINACCT, and I believe that an editor performing a significant action (especially an administrative one) should be accountable, and not just to the people who approach them in exactly the way they want to be approached. However, if my comments were felt to be passive-aggressive, then there was obviously a massive failure on my part as well. I would genuinely like to know, what should I have said differently to avoid such an impression? Here's the exchange:
Hi! I've noticed that you've blocked Ytpks896 as a sockpuppet. Is that a CU block? The most recent SPI case I can see is from 2020, it was against the same user but was dismissed because of the absence of evidence. – Uanfala (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Most of my blocks are not from SPI cases. But, no, it doesn't look like it was a CU block. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, I haven't kept up to date with how sock hunting is done nowadays, but my experience from a couple of years ago was that for an editor to be banned as a sock, there needed to be evidence, solid evidence usually. – Uanfala (talk) 00:51, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- There has never been a requirement for a case at SPI before someone is blocked as a sock puppet. Luckily, Wikipedia's bureaucracy does have limits. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:18, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know if a formal SPI is required, but the presence of solid evidence certainly is. I don't believe you've just blocked this established regular editor on a whim? – Uanfala (talk) 14:23, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Go away. I don't like passive-aggressive people. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
I didn't want to ask right away "What's your evidence?", because that would have felt brusque. I tried to provide a few hints and nudges for something that would have been obvious enough. What did I do wrong? – Uanfala (talk) 16:00, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- You're telling a longtime admin and CU that evidence is required--of course they already know that. If you're familiar with CU and SPI, surely you also know that CU evidence is not usually (or ever) shared broadly. I suppose NRP could have said a bit more about the evidence, and responded differently, but I can hear the passive-aggressive tone here, and Uanfala acknowledged that themselves in their response. Drmies (talk) 16:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not necessarily sensing a lot of passive-aggressive behavior, if anything, Uanfala seemed perfectly polite and cordial in this request. On the other hand, Uanfala never really explicitly challenged this block and asked NRP to explain their actions, so I can't really see this as a complete failure of WP:ADMINACCT. It seems like Uanfala was attempting to be overly polite, and this was interpreted as passive aggression. Uanfala asked a bunch of questions that implied that there were questions about the block, but never actually came out and said, "please tell me what evidence you had to conclude that the blocked user is a sockpuppet." If you never ask a question, you can't fault someone for not answering it. NRP answered all of the questions that were actually asked of them (even though there was a fairly obvious implied question that went unanswered). Additionally, I know that admins that frequently work with sockpuppets are often hesitant to reveal all of the things they look at to identify sockpuppets, as that would allow these users to more easily evade detection in the future. I'm not sure if that was a consideration for why NRP didn't immediately explain all of the details about this block before even being asked to do so. In the end, it appears that the block was accurate, based on the CU evidence given above. So, my conclusion of this event is that it was a good block, I'd give a small trout for NRP for perhaps having a bad day and being somewhat rude, and I'd advise Uanfala to come out and just clearly ask the question next time instead of beating around the bush with side questions and implications. Apart from that, I don't see any other action resulting from this interaction. —ScottyWong— 16:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- I see no passive-aggressiveness or other problems in the way Uanfala raised the issue on NRP's talk page in the excerpt quoted above. I think "Go away. I don't like passive-aggressive people." falls below the expectations of admins explaining their actions. Also, NRP's comment here, "If someone politely asks me for evidence, I respond much differently than if some random person comes to my talk page with outright accusations of blocking people randomly for no reason, which is an aspersion." is problematic. Uanfala was polite. And they are not "some random person", they are an editor with 13 years experience and 57,000 edits. They did not make accusations of blocking people randomly for no reason, not outright or otherwise. Uanfala's comment, "I don't believe you've just blocked this established regular editor on a whim?" explicitly communicates that Uanfala believes NRP had evidence (Uanfala said they don't believe NRP blocked on a whim... which is different from saying 'I can't believe you've just blocked on a whim'). Bottom line, I see NRP expecting to be treated in a way that is far more deferential and cordial than how NRP has treated Uanfala here. Bottom line: seems to be a good block, but a poor response to the questions. Levivich 00:22, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Bottom line x3: I don't get why, after Uanfala's three posts, NRP didn't simply explain why they made the block. Maybe it's because I have the benefit of hindsight, but it just seems bloody obvious to me that Uanfala wanted to know why this user was blocked, and the blocking admin should have explained it, IMO, in their first response. Levivich 00:26, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Levivich. NinjaRobotPirate should have given an explanation, whether that was "This block is due to non-public information that I cannot disclose to you", "I'll email you some context privately", or a full on-wiki justification. I only think this was necessary after Uanfala's third comment, which makes the request unambiguous (NinjaRobotPirate did answer to the letter Uanfala's first two comments).I understand why Uanfala's comments can read as rude; however, we need to be aware that expectations of conversational norms vary hugely on Wikipedia due to cultural factors, neurodiversity and other reasons (I'm not saying that any of those reasons apply specifically here). I don't think there is a way to ask somebody to justify a block that will not come across as rude, passive aggressive, confrontational or patronising to somebody.From TheresNoTime's comment, it seems the block was justified and needs no further litigation. — Bilorv (talk) 09:47, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- In contentious parts of the internet, there's a method of insinuating offensive things using questions, sometimes called "Just Asking Questions" (JAQ). You frame your accusation in the form of a question ("Does X support the terrorists?"), and, for added passive-aggressiveness and deniability, you can phrase it as a negative ("X doesn't support the terrorists, does he?"). It's a frustrating method of needling someone. OK, community consensus says I overreacted. Fine, I'll be more forthcoming, even when I feel like the person is being rude, and I'll assume more good faith. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:16, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity, NinjaRobotPirate, let's say you're enquiring why a CU (who you don't know well) has blocked an editor as a sockpuppet—what would be your preferred opening message? (No intended insinuation in the question; it's meant earnestly.) — Bilorv (talk) 23:33, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- How about "Hey [CU], I see you blocked [blocked editor], could you explain why?" That's pretty straightforward. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:52, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity, NinjaRobotPirate, let's say you're enquiring why a CU (who you don't know well) has blocked an editor as a sockpuppet—what would be your preferred opening message? (No intended insinuation in the question; it's meant earnestly.) — Bilorv (talk) 23:33, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- So is this board going to be used to tone police admins now? My review of the talk page discussion is the same as Scottywong's - the first time that Uanfala asked NinjaRobotPirate to discuss their rationale for the block was on this page, not NRP's talk page. I may not have been as blunt as NRP but I would've told Uanfala to get to the point or stop wasting my time too. This isn't two pals socializing over a beer, it's the internet - if you want something, ask for it in plain language, don't dance around it and hope that the other party picks up on your "hints and nudges". Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:40, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- This is a review of a block, not tone policing. No explanation of the block was actually given until this review, so the review fulfilled its purpose. That people disagree with NRP's assessment of Uanfala's message, does not mean they are "tone policing". (I am grateful that NRP has acknowledged those concerns here.) It's funny you start your post by complaining about "tone policing" while the rest of your post is telling editors how to properly ask a question. I see a touch of hypocrisy there. Levivich 15:44, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, my messaging to you personally isn't exactly how you want it to be? Better open a post at XRV about me. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 15:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)