I am diagnosed with "moderate autism", but I don't know whether it matters to communities. I'll address whatever issues involving me you can bring up, i.e. I'll take accurate criticisms to heart. (More at my user page...)
An arbitration case regarding The Rambling man has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:
- The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)'s resignation as an administrator is to be considered under controversial circumstances, and so his administrator status may only be regained via a successful request for adminship.
- The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) is prohibited from insulting and/or belittling other editors. If The Rambling Man finds himself tempted to engage in prohibited conduct, he is to disengage and either let the matter drop or refer it to another editor to resolve. If however, in the opinion of an uninvolved administrator, The Rambling Man does engage in prohibited conduct, he may be blocked for a duration consistent with the blocking policy. The first four blocks under this provision shall be arbitration enforcement actions and may only be reviewed or appealed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Should a fifth block prove necessary, the blocking administrator must notify the Arbitration Committee of the block via a Request for Clarification and Amendment so that the remedy may be reviewed. The enforcing administrator may also at their discretion fully protect The Rambling Man's talk page for the duration of the block.
Nothing in this remedy prevents enforcement of policy by uninvolved administrators in the usual way.
- The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) and George Ho (talk · contribs) are indefinitely prohibited from interacting with, or commenting on, each other anywhere on Wikipedia (subject to the ordinary exceptions).
- George Ho (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from participating in selecting main page content. For clarity, this means he may not participate in:
- Any process in which the content of the main page is selected, including Did you know?, In the news, On this day, Today's featured article, Today's featured list, and Today's featured picture.
- Any process in which possible problems with the content of the main page are reported, including WP:ERRORS and Talk:Main Page.
- Any discussion about the above processes, regardless of venue.
- He may edit articles linked from or eligible to be linked from the main page (e.g., the current featured article) and may participate in content review processes not directly connected to main page content selection (e.g., reviewing Featured article candidates). He may request reconsideration of this restriction twelve months after the enactment of this remedy, and every six months thereafter.
- The community is encouraged to review the selection process for the Did you know and In the news sections of the main page. The community is also reminded that they may issue topic bans without the involvement of the Arbitration Committee if consensus shows a user has repeatedly submitted poor content, performed poor reviews, or otherwise disrupted these processes.
For the Arbitration Committee, Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 05:01, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/The Rambling Man
Interaction Ban Reminder
Hello,
I’m writing to remind you that as a result of the arbitration case that both you and The Rambling Man are prohibited from interacting with each other, barring the usual exceptions. Recently, you posted questions to the election pages of multiple candidates where you indirectly made reference to The Rambling Man. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15) Please note that such comments are not permitted under the interaction ban and further instances will result in a block. Best regards, Mike V • Talk 22:59, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- I won't do that anymore for now, Mike. Shall I report this the next time it happens? Or can someone else do it? George Ho (talk) 23:51, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- If you are referring to a violation of the interaction ban, you can mention it another admin once. Otherwise, it would be best to avoid all discussion related to The Rambling Man. Mike V • Talk 23:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
- Shall I report his attempts to excuse himself to you, Mike? I felt unease when he made indirect references by saying "canvassing". I was prompted to ask questions when mentioned "canvassed". Is
thishis actions at the questions subpages excusable? George Ho (talk) 00:11, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
- Shall I report his attempts to excuse himself to you, Mike? I felt unease when he made indirect references by saying "canvassing". I was prompted to ask questions when mentioned "canvassed". Is
- If you are referring to a violation of the interaction ban, you can mention it another admin once. Otherwise, it would be best to avoid all discussion related to The Rambling Man. Mike V • Talk 23:55, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Just wanted to drop a note that, as a result of extensive community discussion and numerous issues, the warning issued above has been overturned. [1] Regards, The WordsmithTalk to me 22:36, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement block
If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing blocks (specifically this section) before appealing. Place the following on your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Please copy my appeal to the [[WP:AE|arbitration enforcement noticeboard]] or [[WP:AN|administrators' noticeboard]]. Your reason here OR place the reason below this template. ~~~~}}
. If you intend to appeal on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard I suggest you use the arbitration enforcement appeals template on your talk page so it can be copied over easily. You may also appeal directly to me (by email), before or instead of appealing on your talk page. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:35, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
Reminder to administrators: In May 2014, ArbCom adopted the following procedure instructing administrators regarding Arbitration Enforcement blocks: "No administrator may modify a sanction placed by another administrator without: (1) the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or (2) prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" [in the procedure]). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped."
Nine years! |
---|
Precious anniversary
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Hi, I believe this photo does not meet the fair use criteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Harry_Styles_in_blue_Gucci_dress_and_black_blazer_in_American_Vogue.jpeg
The dress has been displayed in a museum and people are taking photos of it https://www.flickr.com/photos/clarew/51949351993/in/album-72177720297186521/ 92.80.159.30 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 08:18, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Nic Martin (talk) 22:32, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Your recent editing history at Second Cold War shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you do not violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Chip3004 (talk) 23:27, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- @Chip3004: What made you think I was edit-warring, and why do you I deserved to be warned? Also, the report made by NickMartin was closed as "stale", meaning there's nothing the admins can do at the moment. --George Ho (talk) 00:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Nic Martin (talk) 00:53, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Concern regarding Draft:List of Survivor (American TV series) finalists (season 1–20)
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Board of Trustees election
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File:I will always love you (1974 version) by dolly parton.mp3 listed for discussion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:I will always love you (1974 version) by dolly parton.mp3, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you.
This bot DID NOT nominate any of your contributions for deletion; please refer to the history of each individual page for details. Thanks, FastilyBot (talk) 09:00, 21 September 2022 (UTC)
Hell's Kitchen season 8 DVD cover
Hey George! The cover you added to the article was actually the placeholder cover nobody seemingly bothered to update, the final cover is here: https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/JUoAAOSw-CJhaanJ/s-l1600.jpg . For proof, look at this eBay listing. Keep up the great work! ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 04:02, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Oh Well
Any good reason why you want to delete both covers on that page and add your own, inferior image? Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
@Bretonbanquet: Well.... Fleetwood Mac was the British band, but that's before the group change. I figured that a portion of the British release should represent the song. It's not about being on the cover. Rather displaying that "inferior image" should help readers recognize how the release was manufactured and distributed in the band's home country.
If you like to keep both covers, fine. However, they essentially provide the same purpose: identifying the song or single release. Using more than one cover art has been discussed and normally discouraged over and over, especially at WT:NFC and WP:VPP.
All right, how about using one cover art and one "inferior image"? George Ho (talk) 15:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see why the British release should get priority just because the band were British. I don't really agree that any information displayed on the record label trumps a sleeve with the band's photo on it. Free images of that lineup are extremely scarce, and it's an opportunity to show useful information. Anyway - a question. Record labels are not cover art, so are they subject to the same fair use criteria? I understand that two examples of cover art infringe that rule, but are record labels actually copyrighted? In any case, I'm happy with using one record sleeve plus the record label. You can choose which one; both the French and Spanish sleeves are mine, as are the original photos. Cheers, Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:18, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
are record labels actually copyrighted?
They can be only if they contain complex logos and creative expressions. Otherwise, logos that are below originality threshold and factual info still would be insufficient to help a vinyl label sticker go above the threshold, IMHO. Two examples are File:Summer breeze part 1 by isley brothers US single.png and File:Reunited by Peaches and Herb, New Zealand single.png, both of which I uploaded on Commons. George Ho (talk) 21:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)- So you're saying it depends (in this case) whether or not the Reprise logo constitutes a complex logo? Interesting. How do we know for sure if this is the case or not? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:30, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- A logo that complex, like the Reprise UK one, rather than simple, like the T-Neck one, and highly emphasized would make a label not free to use. Furthermore, c:COM:TOO US explains which logos may or may not surpass originality threshold. Also, the Reprise UK logo itself has elements that makes the logo itself complex sufficiently for an average eye.
- Not just one logo, but the background color of the label must be also complex, like File:Never, Never Gonna Give Ya Up US vinyl Side A 20th century fox.jpg, rather than plain and simple. Otherwise, it'd be like a Sire Records vinyl label sticker, like File:Holiday by Madonna US vinyl.png: simple yellow background, a yin-yang-ish shape, and every factual elements lacking creativity. Never mind the dust on the bottom half. George Ho (talk) 22:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- Okay, that's really interesting. Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
- So you're saying it depends (in this case) whether or not the Reprise logo constitutes a complex logo? Interesting. How do we know for sure if this is the case or not? Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:30, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
This article is greatly improved now and much more navigable! Bgsu98 (talk) 13:30, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: List of The Great British Bake Off contestants has been accepted
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MurielMary (talk) 08:46, 11 October 2022 (UTC)Orphaned non-free image File:Whitney Houston You Give Good Love 45 USA.jpg
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:41, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
Warning about edit warring
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
Points to note:
- Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
- Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:52, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- To be clear:
- You made a WP:BOLD redirect.
- You were reverted by someone else.
- You revert-warred to keep the redirect in place.
- The final revert wasn't picked up for a year.
- When it finally was picked up and was clearly going to be overturned, you tried to frame at as an WP:RFC with your unilateral, disputed by multiple editors, WP:BOLD edit as the status quo, so that you might be able to stonewall a low-turnout WP:RM if only a couple of editors responded.
- That's clearly an abuse of process. There wasn't a consensus when you were WP:BOLD in the first place. There wasn't a consensus when you revert-warred to stop it being overturned when it was initially picked up by another editor. And the last, desperate play to try to stop it being overturned when it was noticed still didn't generate a consensus. It's just a determined effort to railroad Wikipedia despite a clear admission that there's no policy basis for it. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:58, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I've responded there. If you'd done the right thing when your WP:BOLD merger attempt was reverted a year ago, instead of revert-warring to try to avoid a discussion, we wouldn't be here. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:22, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- You should've left the redirect page alone in the first. Don't blame me or hold me responsible for this. George Ho (talk) 23:24, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- No, you should have left the article in place when you were reverted at the time. You were WP:BOLD, you were reverted, and instead of proceeding to the next step and discussing it, you revert-warred in the hope that you could still try to skip having to get a consensus if it went unnoticed. Unfortunately for you, eventually, your edits got noticed, and so we're having the discussion now that you tried to dodge a year ago. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:27, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- "dodge"? I just assumed that there would be almost no objections to the redirect. One year without notice is too late for me. If it were three months or less after my first redirect/merger of the Tandoh page, I would've started the merger discussion right away. George Ho (talk) 23:41, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- You were reverted a month later, and your response was to revert-war rather than start that merger discussion, so we know for a fact that's not true. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:49, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- The IP editor didn't explain why. I treated that edit as mere vandalism rather than unstated or implied opposition. George Ho (talk) 23:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- On what basis? It's literally a step in WP:BRD: you were bold, you were reverted, you needed to discuss it. There's not an out because you decide that the person reverting you is a secret vandal who just happened to undo your potentially controversial move. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:53, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- The IP editor didn't explain why. I treated that edit as mere vandalism rather than unstated or implied opposition. George Ho (talk) 23:50, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- You were reverted a month later, and your response was to revert-war rather than start that merger discussion, so we know for a fact that's not true. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:49, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- "dodge"? I just assumed that there would be almost no objections to the redirect. One year without notice is too late for me. If it were three months or less after my first redirect/merger of the Tandoh page, I would've started the merger discussion right away. George Ho (talk) 23:41, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- No, you should have left the article in place when you were reverted at the time. You were WP:BOLD, you were reverted, and instead of proceeding to the next step and discussing it, you revert-warred in the hope that you could still try to skip having to get a consensus if it went unnoticed. Unfortunately for you, eventually, your edits got noticed, and so we're having the discussion now that you tried to dodge a year ago. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:27, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- You should've left the redirect page alone in the first. Don't blame me or hold me responsible for this. George Ho (talk) 23:24, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- I've responded there. If you'd done the right thing when your WP:BOLD merger attempt was reverted a year ago, instead of revert-warring to try to avoid a discussion, we wouldn't be here. The Drover's Wife (talk) 23:22, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Your submission at Articles for creation: Kelly Wiglesworth (November 7)
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Concern regarding Draft:Nigel Platts-Martin
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Orphaned non-free image File:Solomon Golomb 2014.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Solomon Golomb 2014.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 18:39, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
GBBO second? Runner-Up?
I admit to never having watched an episode of GBBO, so I'm writing User:GRuban/Ruby Tandoh completely from sources, no personal knowledge. In this edit you wrote Tandoh fared worse than Kimberley in the finals, but.... whatever. Are the two behind the winner ranked, or are they both just runners-up? Is there a source? I just read a few sources that seem to say Tandoh was second, the one that I can think of immediately is https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/being-second-best-can-make-you-the-real-winner-in-the-end-ruby-tandoh-one-direction-olly-murs-jls-x-factor-r2mwgqm3s - which you probably can't read, but it's right in the URL. It doesn't exclude Wilson also being second, I guess, but it is something. We do want to get it right. Is there a source one way or the other? --GRuban (talk) 22:31, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- As a side comment - thanks! I admit, at first I thought that maybe User:The Drover's Wife would be participating in expanding the article, and you would just be standing by. Then when your participation was slapping questionable tags on the article, I, well ... let's just say, . But now that it seems that you're actually helping, that's very nice of you! --GRuban (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, and you're welcome. The judges found Tandoh's wedding cake tier "dry" or "too dry" AFAICR. (Side note: you can watch the series on Roku Channel if you're in the US) Nonetheless, best to treat two runners-up as the same position or tie indefinitely. George Ho (talk) 22:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
Every newspaper owned by Reach plc questionable?
I notice [2] you've been adding questionable source tags to the Birmingham Mail saying that you don't trust them because they're owned by the Reach plc conglomerate, which owns the Daily Mail. I'm not an expert on the lesser British press, but I can read our article on Birmingham Mail which says it's been around since 1870. insource:birminghammail says it's used in 3271 articles on Wikipedia. List of Reach plc titles says they own maybe 200 titles, most of which we have articles about, I'm not going to do a search for every one of these, but I wouldn't be surprised if each one has a similar number of uses. Are you going to add a similar tag to each use? It also says it used to own 43% of The Independent, which I'm pretty sure is considered highly reliable. While we're at it, News UK is a similar conglomerate, and owns The Sun (United Kingdom) - unreliable - and The Times - highly reliable. I don't think mechanical guilt by association works here.
What does work is asking what a given citation is used for. If you, in good faith, can tell me "I don't think this is true" for a specific instance where a source is used to cite a fact, tell me, and I'll be glad to discuss it with you, and if it's not convincing, remove the statement. I don't think this is the case, especially since you are tagging sources even before they're used to cite anything. We want to be quite sure that what we're writing is true. That is the final point, right? Making sure our articles are correct? Not satisfying the criteria of a table of sources? --GRuban (talk) 14:24, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- A few Wikipedia:Featured articles that use Birmingham Mail as a source:
- Aston Villa F.C.
- Baseball
- J. K. Rowling (living person)
- Villa Park
- Wikipedia:Good articles likewise:
- Birmingham
- Burger King
- Black Sabbath (debatably living persons)
- Iron Maiden (likewise)
- Birmingham City F.C.
- Paul Pogba (living person)
- Rupert Grint (living person)
- West Bromwich Albion F.C.
- Supermarine Spitfire
- Bournemouth
- Caroline Flack (living person)
- Tammy Abraham (living person)
- This is from a few minutes of searching. I suspect I could find more if I searched longer. --GRuban (talk) 15:30, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
File:I Will Always Love You Whitney Houston chorus refrain 3.mp3 listed for discussion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:I Will Always Love You Whitney Houston chorus refrain 3.mp3, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you.
This bot DID NOT nominate any of your contributions for deletion; please refer to the history of each individual page for details. Thanks, FastilyBot (talk) 10:00, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Ruby Tandoh
The draft for this article is clearly pushing WP:GA level, and you're still obsessively trying to unilaterally redirect the article.
If it was very questionable before, it's patently absurd now, and it's indefensible.
The draft needs to be moved live, and any further work anyone would like to do can take place there.
What, exactly, would it take to stop your obsessive crusade against this article? Literal WP:FA status? The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- If there's consensus to restore the article. I already requested closure at WP:CR. Please change back to the redirect page. I'm getting tired of your back-and-forth edits. I'll not submit to your demands until the discussion results come in. I'll keep on fighting if you are willing to fight back until you stop changing it back amid the discussion. George Ho (talk) 07:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- Your behaviour is in straight-up bad faith at this point: you've admitted that she's notable, you've demanded an expansion of an already fine article and received an absolutely phenomenal makeover that pushed the article close to WP:GA status and you just told me that you'll "keep on fighting" to redirect it without any further attempt whatsoever to even try to justify said behaviour following the huge expansion and mass addition of sources. You unilaterally redirected the article to your list without any consensus whatsoever, you revert-warred when it was challenged, it has been opposed by multiple editors and only supported by one, and even after someone gave into your demands and undertook a huge expansion and mass addition of sourcing, you're still just desperately grasping at any straw to redirect the article. Hell, I asked you if it would take an expansion to WP:FA status to get you to stop, and you just responded about how determined you were to fight me without any reference to the article. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Hell, I asked you if it would take an expansion to WP:FA status to get you to stop, and you just responded about how determined you were to fight me without any reference to the article.
Aren't you being sarcastic? As said, the page should still be a redirect while the discussion. Also, I'm unsure whether having two newer votes would change anything unless majority votes are sufficient. Also, the "Twitter conflicts"... oh no! Now I wonder whether she'll be viewed more negatively when readers see this. George Ho (talk) 07:56, 23 November 2022 (UTC)- That's not a response that actually has anything to do with the article: it's just "I'll keep on fighting" in more words. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the finalist list needs to be deleted: most of the article concerns details on non-notable people that don't belong on Wikipedia, and the remaining content is misplaced and generally only there due to your disruptive behaviour. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- There's already a consensus to merge most of winners' pages: Talk:The Great British Bake Off/Archive 2#Individual articles about Bake Off winners. If that doesn't convince you, then I shall tell you that someone already accept the draft into the mainspace via AFC. George Ho (talk) 08:07, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- A grand total of two people responded to that RfC, there was no clear consensus about which articles were and were not included, and it didn't even include this article in any context in the original proposal. Articles that don't meet Wikipedia standards slip through WP:AFC and get deleted every single day. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- Do I have to give in to your demands that the Tandoh article be left alone? Must articles about winners be restored by another discussion or what? The consensus already agreed that most, if not all, articles about winners be merged into the list. If that discussion isn't enough, look at other past discussions seen in Talk:List of The Great British Bake Off finalists (series 1–7).
- I wasn't disruptive as you claimed. Look, I shouldn't have said "I'll keep on fighting" just to encourage you and myself. I was hoping for collaboration (or some sort of agreement) between us, but... I don't know how to handle your combativeness (or what else was that if it's not "combativeness"?). George Ho (talk) 08:19, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- There was no consensus there: four people replied (I missed the two that didn't !vote), everyone agreed that some could be merged and some were notable and no one really agreed on which was which. There's a similar situation with the others: articles that weren't tagged with merge notices to notify editors interested in that person, as should've happened per policy, quietly merged after no-turnout discussions on a page no one was paying attention to.
- A grand total of two people responded to that RfC, there was no clear consensus about which articles were and were not included, and it didn't even include this article in any context in the original proposal. Articles that don't meet Wikipedia standards slip through WP:AFC and get deleted every single day. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- There's already a consensus to merge most of winners' pages: Talk:The Great British Bake Off/Archive 2#Individual articles about Bake Off winners. If that doesn't convince you, then I shall tell you that someone already accept the draft into the mainspace via AFC. George Ho (talk) 08:07, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- That's not a response that actually has anything to do with the article: it's just "I'll keep on fighting" in more words. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the finalist list needs to be deleted: most of the article concerns details on non-notable people that don't belong on Wikipedia, and the remaining content is misplaced and generally only there due to your disruptive behaviour. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- Your behaviour is in straight-up bad faith at this point: you've admitted that she's notable, you've demanded an expansion of an already fine article and received an absolutely phenomenal makeover that pushed the article close to WP:GA status and you just told me that you'll "keep on fighting" to redirect it without any further attempt whatsoever to even try to justify said behaviour following the huge expansion and mass addition of sources. You unilaterally redirected the article to your list without any consensus whatsoever, you revert-warred when it was challenged, it has been opposed by multiple editors and only supported by one, and even after someone gave into your demands and undertook a huge expansion and mass addition of sourcing, you're still just desperately grasping at any straw to redirect the article. Hell, I asked you if it would take an expansion to WP:FA status to get you to stop, and you just responded about how determined you were to fight me without any reference to the article. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm all for collaboration, but there has to be something to base that on other than an insistence that you don't want Tandoh to have an article, regardless of any arguments about either her notability as per Wikipedia guidelines or even the article content. There's nowhere much to go from there. If you want to have discussions about the notability of former GBBO contestants that are actually based on questions of notability, as is normally the case, I'm absolutely all ears. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:28, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- In general, or which contestants specifically? Winners? Runners-up? Who else? Also, where to discuss the general matter? I don't wanna restore the articles back per WP:EDITCONSENSUS. Also, only you objected to the list. Who do you think is revising history of such discussions about their notabilities? You or me? George Ho (talk) 08:37, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- Would that be WT:notability (people) or WT:Notability or where else? George Ho (talk) 08:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- There was no consensus as such as applied to any specific articles (beyond the broad, undisputed principle that some are notable and many if not most aren't), so WP:EDITCONSENSUS is irrelevant.
- I'm all for collaboration, but there has to be something to base that on other than an insistence that you don't want Tandoh to have an article, regardless of any arguments about either her notability as per Wikipedia guidelines or even the article content. There's nowhere much to go from there. If you want to have discussions about the notability of former GBBO contestants that are actually based on questions of notability, as is normally the case, I'm absolutely all ears. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:28, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't really see that it's possible to come up with a general rule for these contestants (or really for any television show of that nature), because notability is going to wildly vary regardless of how they did on the show - it's probably always going to be a situation where everyone (winners included) needs to pass WP:GNG. And that's fine: outside of a few specific areas where most of Wikipedia can agree that there's an inherent notability in some achevement, that's the way these things are generally handled on most subjects on Wikipedia. There's also no example (anywhere that I can think of, in any context) of there being such a thing as an inherent non-notability (because of having done something in particular) that would override WP:GNG. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
IMO notability is not an automatic reason to benefit a stand-alone article, especially if a stand-alone list can cover people whose notabilities (or non-notabilities) vary. Also, I've not yet seen you specify which articles you wanna restore back. Kim-Joy? Ruby Bhogal? Andrew Smyth (engineer)? Those three articles to me deserved to be merged into the list. If you revert any of them, that means you disagree with me. Still, I've not yet seen these articles present anything valuable that would belong in a stand-alone article and nowhere else. Rather info from these (former) articles are more suitable for the list(s). George Ho (talk) 09:21, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
You repeatedly insist that there's "no consensus" and that you're "right" about specific articles, but no one opposed redirecting many or most articles about winners and runners-up. Also, you seem to be in favor of restoring articles and denouncing the lists I created as "disruptive" or something. You know what? I don't know whether our collaboration will work well when we are unable to compromise. Rather we clash over and over. Have you often clashed with other users in the similar way as you and I? George Ho (talk) 10:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- The problem with your argument is that there's no basis for it in Wikipedia policies or guidelines: you're advocating an approach that genuinely flies in the face of how Wikipedia has handled the question of who gets an article for its entire history. Inclusion comes down to notability, with a large field of guidelines to flesh out how that gets decided. You can have the opinion that that shouldn't be the case, but trying to impose it on a small area of articles with limited if any support isn't going to fly - that's an argument you need to have, essentially, with the whole project, which if successful would amount to what would be one of the most fundamental shifts on article inclusion in the entire history of the project.
- That's why this is so difficult - in general, Wikipedia falls back on a multitude of often long-established guidelines to resolve these issues, and you're trying to completely toss them out the window and do something different but only as applied to a very small section of articles with the feedback of a couple of users. I have no particular opinion on the three cases you listed, as I haven't assessed whether they meet WP:GNG, but that is ultimately the policy question that their inclusion hinges on.
- Similarly, the list raises additional policy issues. You mention Wikipedia:Stand-alone list, but none of that deals with "lists" which amount to merged biographies of a bunch of living people into a combined page. The closest it comes to what you're suggesting is the criterion "Every entry in the list fails the notability criteria" (and cites List of Dilbert characters, which very much resembles what you're trying to create here), but it explicitly states "this criterion is never used for living people".
- Further, Wikipedia generally takes a dim view of including biographical details of non-public figures, and I think there's a fairly solid case that the substantial amount of "here's the current job and/or residence of this person who's been out of the public eye for ten years" entries doesn't gel with our WP:BLP policies. For an example of a more common approach, List of American Idol finalists looks a lot more like I'd expect this list to look, were there a need to split it out from the contestants list in the first place.
- To be clear, I don't oppose redirecting "many or most articles about winners and runners-up". The question, again - here and everywhere else on Wikipedia - is whether they meet WP:GNG. My initial assumption would be that most wouldn't, but it's always going to be something that requires an individual assessment based on that guideline. I see very little value in having biographical entries at all for people who don't. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:08, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know how else to respond to your argument(s). Before the list was created, article about Bake Off winners have been created. I figured that merging them would be the best way possible, especially to preserve valuable info. I hate to see the list get deleted just because (you think) it doesn't fly with policies and guidelines. Also, if the list gets deleted, must I turn redirects back into articles again? I just.... I just.... I don't know.
- Nonetheless, how are most Bake Off contestants "non-public figures"? To me, they became public figures by appearing on Bake Off, watched by viewers. If they're not "public figures" to you, then how do you define a "public figure"? Nonetheless, not all public figures meet GNG if there aren't enough independent reliable sources covering such persons. George Ho (talk) 13:37, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia has existing policies and guidelines that cover how to deal with all of these issues precisely to avoid disputes becoming protracted arguments if possible. In respect of the "public figures" question, see Wikipedia:Who is a low-profile individual (which uses the example of someone who was a minor member of a famous band many years ago and then dropped out of public life) and WP:NPF, the latter of which states "In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to the person's notability, focusing on high-quality secondary sources". The "where are they now" stuff for the people who don't pass WP:GNG doesn't really cut it as being relevant to the person's notability (and often the sourcing is pretty tabloid at best anyway). As for turning redirects back into articles: probably not, in most cases, because as we've discussed the majority of finalists are unlikely to pass WP:GNG. It may be that the best place for those redirects, though, is the article about their GBBO season, because that's a more on-topic place to discuss material that is relevant to their GBBO appearance. The Drover's Wife (talk) 19:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NPF also implies case-by-case basis on individual materials about living persons, including low-profile "public" figures, but at least you made a point about practicing caution.
- If you feel like proposing re-targeting redirects into their seasons, then the best place to propose would be either WP:RFD or Talk:The Great British Bake Off. To you, it's logical. However, I put my blood, sweat, tears, and effort to create and develop the list(s). Furthermore, readers would be frustrated over insufficient info about winners and runners-up. Also, what about WP:NOTBURO (and/or WP:NOTDEMO if applicable) and occasional exceptions and common sense per WP:GUIDES? I would oppose your retargeting proposal to specific seasons. I recently created List of The Great British Bake Off contestants, accepted via AFC. Why not that one instead? Oh wait... I don't feel like supporting that either.... unless.... Ah well, I can't support, but please feel free to propose elsewhere.
The "where are they now" stuff for the people who don't pass WP:GNG doesn't really cut it as being relevant to the person's notability (and often the sourcing is pretty tabloid at best anyway).
Which information about specific winners and runners-up do you have issues with? I'll address the specific issue if you're willing. What you said is general, but I appreciate your concerns about verifiability of disputed info. George Ho (talk) 21:17, 23 November 2022 (UTC)- Neither of those WP:NOT links are a basis for ignoring all relevant policies and guidelines because of "blood, sweat and tears" or because of assertions about reader curiosity. There is no issue with your List of The Great British Bake Off contestants: it's completely compliant with policy and guidelines, and is an example of what to do. However, it isn't the place for details about their time on the show, content which has always been in the season articles, with any non-notable contestants who wound up at AfD over the years redirected to their season. (Again, an article being accepted through AfC is no defence as to whether it should ultimately exist; as a long-time (if long inactive) AfC reviewer, I wasn't going to lose sleep if anyone nominated for deletion any lineball cases where I'd erred on the side of inclusion.)
- Wikipedia has existing policies and guidelines that cover how to deal with all of these issues precisely to avoid disputes becoming protracted arguments if possible. In respect of the "public figures" question, see Wikipedia:Who is a low-profile individual (which uses the example of someone who was a minor member of a famous band many years ago and then dropped out of public life) and WP:NPF, the latter of which states "In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to the person's notability, focusing on high-quality secondary sources". The "where are they now" stuff for the people who don't pass WP:GNG doesn't really cut it as being relevant to the person's notability (and often the sourcing is pretty tabloid at best anyway). As for turning redirects back into articles: probably not, in most cases, because as we've discussed the majority of finalists are unlikely to pass WP:GNG. It may be that the best place for those redirects, though, is the article about their GBBO season, because that's a more on-topic place to discuss material that is relevant to their GBBO appearance. The Drover's Wife (talk) 19:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- Every contestant who doesn't meet WP:GNG because they haven't gone on to any continued significance would be likely to be considered "low profile" for the purposes of whether biographical material irrelevant to their time on the show should be included, and anyone who does pass WP:GNG shouldn't be there to begin with. I can't say having to clean up the entire GBBO contestant article universe is what I want to be doing with my time on Wikipedia, but if it's necessary to get that done to stop relentless merge efforts on the small handful of very notable former contestants then unfortunately I guess it has to be done. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- What about WP:NBIO, including WP:BIOSPECIAL and WP:LISTBIO? It handles merged content, especially for persons who fail GNG. Honestly, I'm getting too excited and frustrated over your arguments against the list. I feel beaten and beaten over and over, and it's not fun anymore. George Ho (talk) 22:22, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NBIO (like WP:GNG) is part of how we determine notability, and provides no basis for the merge-notable-people-and-keep-quasi-articles-on-non-notable people thing you've tried to do here. WP:LISTBIO refers only to straight lists (such as List of The Great British Bake Off contestants). Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists makes explicitly clear that WP:BIOSPECIAL can never (its wording, not mine) be used in the way you're trying to do here. The relevant policies and guidelines determine questions of inclusion, and whether or not they're "fun" is beside the point. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:51, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- (*sigh*) Which other winner biographies do you want restored? Candice Brown (7) is out of question as people already agreed with the merger to the list. John Whaite (3) and Nadiya Hussain (6) are already considered notable, and two of you oppose redirecting Giuseppe to the list. George Ho (talk) 04:53, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- Apart from Tandoh, James Morton is the only only other one that stands out as really obviously notable independently of GBBO (and the discussion on which the redirect was purportedly based was an explicit no-consensus close). The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:11, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
an explicit no-consensus close
Not entirely true. The one who answer my request didn't close the discussion (Talk:List of The Great British Bake Off finalists (series 1–7)#Redirect James Morton (baker)?) but went ahead with the retargeting and had no opposition to anyone wanting to restore the article. IMO the Morton article didn't present anything that would've belong in the article itself rather than the list. But please feel free to be bold and undo the redirecting if you wish. George Ho (talk) 05:30, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- Apart from Tandoh, James Morton is the only only other one that stands out as really obviously notable independently of GBBO (and the discussion on which the redirect was purportedly based was an explicit no-consensus close). The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:11, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- (*sigh*) Which other winner biographies do you want restored? Candice Brown (7) is out of question as people already agreed with the merger to the list. John Whaite (3) and Nadiya Hussain (6) are already considered notable, and two of you oppose redirecting Giuseppe to the list. George Ho (talk) 04:53, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NBIO (like WP:GNG) is part of how we determine notability, and provides no basis for the merge-notable-people-and-keep-quasi-articles-on-non-notable people thing you've tried to do here. WP:LISTBIO refers only to straight lists (such as List of The Great British Bake Off contestants). Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists makes explicitly clear that WP:BIOSPECIAL can never (its wording, not mine) be used in the way you're trying to do here. The relevant policies and guidelines determine questions of inclusion, and whether or not they're "fun" is beside the point. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:51, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- What about WP:NBIO, including WP:BIOSPECIAL and WP:LISTBIO? It handles merged content, especially for persons who fail GNG. Honestly, I'm getting too excited and frustrated over your arguments against the list. I feel beaten and beaten over and over, and it's not fun anymore. George Ho (talk) 22:22, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- Every contestant who doesn't meet WP:GNG because they haven't gone on to any continued significance would be likely to be considered "low profile" for the purposes of whether biographical material irrelevant to their time on the show should be included, and anyone who does pass WP:GNG shouldn't be there to begin with. I can't say having to clean up the entire GBBO contestant article universe is what I want to be doing with my time on Wikipedia, but if it's necessary to get that done to stop relentless merge efforts on the small handful of very notable former contestants then unfortunately I guess it has to be done. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:09, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Spandau Ballet files
I've been doing a lot of work on Spandau Ballet songs and added or replaced several sound files. You marked the two that I didn't replace for deletion, so I thought I'd ask about the best way to address them. I see that the editor who uploaded them didn't provide as much detail in his summary of those files as I have, so would adding more of a description to what he already entered address your concern? You wrote, "justification for sample usage not well illustrated in the song article", but my description in the article talks about dance rock rhythms and jazz horns. Is that the part I should focus on? I look forward to addressing this matter with your assistance. Danaphile (talk) 13:55, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
- You can remove the PROD tag from File:Gold (Spandau Ballet song).ogg if you disagree with my concern. I just figured that readers would understand what the words mean without the sample, and I wondered why it's placed in the Critical Reception section. But then if you think the sample's placement is justified, then I won't challenge it further for a long while. George Ho (talk) 16:33, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
- The sound samples for both "Chant No. 1 (I Don't Need This Pressure On)" and "Gold" were placed in the Critical reception section because the descriptions come from comments by critics that are enhanced by the inclusion of the sample. Would it be OK to remove the PROD tag from Chant No. 1 as well? Danaphile (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
- Curiously, why didn't you click file links, like File:Chant No. 1 (I Don't Need This Pressure On).ogg, and see the PROD tag intact in file pages? But then you're not the only person who removed caption notices and overlooked file pages. George Ho (talk) 19:18, 27 November 2022 (UTC); expanded, 23:58, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
- The sound samples for both "Chant No. 1 (I Don't Need This Pressure On)" and "Gold" were placed in the Critical reception section because the descriptions come from comments by critics that are enhanced by the inclusion of the sample. Would it be OK to remove the PROD tag from Chant No. 1 as well? Danaphile (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
thanks!
Thank you for requesting a history merge, I feel a bit like an idiot, but you're quite correct, I didn't come across Kim-Joy until after I'd already created Kim-Joy Hewlett and started fixing a ton of piped mentions. Valereee (talk) 18:37, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
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You know exactly what you're doing, and that it's not an acceptable way to move a page. Don't pull that sort of nonsense again. Primefac (talk) 13:14, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Primefac: What do you think I should've done, especially after my initial request was rejected? Also, Kim-Joy is her commonly used name. --George Ho (talk) 17:29, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
thank you ...
... for a constructive comment in the Laurence Olivier RfC, to which I referred in my arbcand questions. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
....Although the vexatious SPI against SC was rather ungentlemanly and spiteful. Ends should not be excuses for means. Ceoil (talk) 04:45, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- If you want me to apologize to SchroCat, then I'll do so right away. Well, I should've done something else instead of SPI. I just got caught up by multiple IP addresses and pushy attempts to suppress info in lead. George Ho (talk) 05:00, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- No you don't need to apologize; that's fine he has think skin - it was more that you didn't read carefully or understand the rules around socking before you leapt in and made the filing. Thats what I'm saying - your often not basing your deletions requests etc on actual policy....slow down man!! Ceoil (talk) 05:05, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'll try; I just see other samples deleted, like certain Celine Dion ones, and get caught up by things easily. George Ho (talk) 05:07, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- No you don't need to apologize; that's fine he has think skin - it was more that you didn't read carefully or understand the rules around socking before you leapt in and made the filing. Thats what I'm saying - your often not basing your deletions requests etc on actual policy....slow down man!! Ceoil (talk) 05:05, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Hex Enduction Hour files
- Withdraw for now, what is that supposed to imply? Ceoil (talk) 04:45, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- ....I should have said "withdrawn per suggestion" or something like that. Doesn't mean I plan to re-nominate someday, especially in the (far) future. I don't know why I said "for now"; guess I'll be careful what I would say and/or imply from now on. George Ho (talk) 05:04, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- Ok, understood. It did feel like an implied treat, but grand and ok. No hard feelings from here. Ceoil (talk) 05:06, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Your draft article, Draft:Nigel Platts-Martin
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Your submission at Articles for creation: List of Survivor (American TV series) finalists (seasons 1–10) (December 25)
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Nomination of Lightning Comics (1967) for deletion
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DYK for Ruby Tandoh
On 11 January 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Ruby Tandoh, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that when baker Ruby Tandoh (pictured) publicly came out, she mocked critics who suggested that she had romanced a male contest judge? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Ruby Tandoh. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Ruby Tandoh), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.
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Query
Hello, George,
I go through a lot of PROD'd files and I was wondering why you prefered a pretty bland image of a record over a more visually appealing album cover. If they are both non-free images used to illustrate the article subject, in an article about that subject, then I think our readers would prefer an interesting album cover over an image of what the record looked like decades ago. I realize that you are more familiar with copyright guidelines than I am so I'm wondering what I missing here. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 22:20, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- @Liz: I appreciate your preference for a cover art to illustrate a song, but various releases back then used either picture sleeves or generic ones. Many pre-1990s American vinyl releases and other overseas releases use generic sleeves. But then I figured that I can use free portion of any release, regardless of where it was released in. Otherwise, if I couldn't find a free replacement, then I can go for a non-free portion of a release from the song's home country. Worse, even some album arts don't belong to any specific single release but rather a compilation album or a song's parent album.
- I nominated some of my uploads to FFD to have them evaluated. They were eventually deleted without objections from others. George Ho (talk) 23:37, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 03:13, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Category:PD-AR-Movie has been nominated for deletion
Category:PD-AR-Movie has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Gonnym (talk) 14:18, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
Orphaned non-free image File:Dancer colum mccann.jpg
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 03:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
The article KVUE (disambiguation) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
Disambiguation page not required because there is a hatnote already on the KVUE page.
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}}
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will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. From Bassie f (his talk page) 08:46, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
10 Attitudes
Orphaned non-free image File:I Just Want to Make Love to You by Etta James UK CD single 1996 re-release.jpg
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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 03:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC)