Wikipedia Arbitration |
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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.
This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.
Please make your request in the appropriate section:
- Request a new arbitration case
- Request clarification or amendment of an existing case
- This includes requests to lift sanctions previously imposed
- Request enforcement of a remedy in an existing case
- Arbitrator motions
- Arbitrator-initiated motions, not specific to a current open request
Requests for arbitration
Requests for clarification and amendment
Amendment request: Horn of Africa
There is a rough consensus of arbitrators that this contentious topic area includes waters off the Horn of Africa. There is also rough consensus that the topic area does not in general extend into Yemen or Saudia Arabia, though arbitrators might feel different in a specific instance. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:24, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
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Initiated by TomStar81 at 18:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by TomStar81When this case was initially heard there was some semblance of peace in the greater Horn of Africa region. Accordingly then, the case itself was understood by both me and others writing with regards to it as being the nations explicitly mentioned above, which lie to the west, south, and southeast as the greater Horn of Africa region. Now, however, we are beginning to get articles on military action such as those described at Houthi involvement in the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. These actions, and the base for them, lie to the North of the Horn of Africa - specifically the Red Sea and Yemen (at the moment), although the Gulf of Aden and or Saudi Arabia could eventually be drawn into this as well. Given that the ruling for the Horn of Africa arbitration case never explicitly took up the matter of the northern region of the Horn of Africa, I am seeking clarification from the committee as to whether or not the authorized discretionary sanctions may be reasonably construed as including the two major bodies of water (Red Sea and Gulf of Aden), and whether or not Yemen and Saudi Arabia could be reasonably construed under the current definition of the authorized sanctions as "adjoining areas". I point out that the committee already has ARBIA cases on which it has ruled, but to my knowledge the committee has never officially dictated what extent if any its ruling should be applied to adjoining bodies of water.
Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information. Horn of Africa: Clerk notes
Horn of Africa: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Amendment request: GiantSnowman
Initiated by GiantSnowman at 09:59, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GiantSnowman#MassRollback.js
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GiantSnowman#GiantSnowman use of rollback
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- GiantSnowman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- The restrictions related to the use of rollback (and associated scripts/tools) is lifted.
- The restrictions related to the use of rollback (and associated scripts/tools) is lifted.
Statement by GiantSnowman
At my ArbCom case I was rightly admonished for incorrectly using rollback tools, inadvertently reverting valid edits when attempting to rollback vandalism. I have spent the past nearly 5 years manually checking and reverting vandalism instead, which is an onerous task and is now impacting on my ability to deal with socks (for example I have recently been collaborating with @Malcolmxl5: in dealing with Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of HazemGM). I would therefore request that the restrictions related to rollback are lifted. I will only use rollback for clear vandalism/socks and I will endeavour to explain the reason for rollback in my edit summary (I say 'endeavour' is because, if I recall, that is only possible when using the mass rollback tool; if rollbacking individual edits a default edit summary is displayed instead).
Eventually I would like all restrictions formally lifted, although I intend to continue to abide by them indefinitely, and so welcome any general feedback on the same.
- [in response to SilkTork] For that particular editor (long-time block evader, subject to multiple range blocks), I would rollback all edits for all new IPs per WP:DENY. GiantSnowman 16:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- [in response to SamX] So you admit adding unsourced content to a BLP? And then I sent you a non-templated message explaining why your behaviour was not acceptable? And your response was "Fair enough [...] Upon further reflection, I realize that my actions violated the spirit, if not the letter, of WP:BLP"? I then found a source for the content myself and added it to the article? So what's the issue now? What communication issues were there? GiantSnowman 18:20, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- [in response to SamX] You're raising concerns, 9 months later, that I didn't respond to a message on your talk page in which you had adequately dealt with the issues raised by my initial message? GiantSnowman 19:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- [in response to Barkeep49] Difficult one - see end of paragraph. Edits I might have rollbacked include e.g. this and this as clear vandalism, although I would probably have manually reverted even those. Edits I would not have rollbacked, despite also being clear vandalism, include this and this (as the 'height vandalism' is not always as obvious to third party editors). To be honest, having spent 5 years manually reverting vandalism, I would probably still do so, only using rollback for occasions where that is not practical. GiantSnowman 19:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by SamX
I'd like to draw the committee's attention to this interaction I had with GiantSnowman in March this year. I came across this diff during recent changes patrol. I was able to verify the veracity of the information with a quick Google search and I saw a mention of the loan later in the article so I didn't bother adding a reference, instead making a quick copyedit. GiantSnowman then dropped a boilerplate warning on my talk page. It wasn't a templated warning, but it was generic and akin to {{uw-biog1}}, and GS added an identical warning to the talk page of the IP that made the original edit. When I asked for clarification, his reply was curt and dismissive. In hindsight I probably should have checked the sources more thoroughly, but GiantSnowman's comments on my talk page weren't especially helpful and left a bad taste in my mouth. I know this is pretty minor in the grand scheme of things and doesn't directly relate to rollback, but I think it indicates that the communication issues that led to his editing restrictions have not been entirely resolved. — SamX [talk · contribs] 18:01, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- @ToBeFree: Thanks, I meant to link to this edit. — SamX [talk · contribs] 18:32, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Ah, sorry. :) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- [reply to GiantSnomwan] As I've said, I didn't add the information about the loan to the BLP; I just made some minor copyedits. Yes, I should have checked the sources cited in the article to make sure that they supported the loan itself, not just rumors of the loan. Your initial message on my talk page was generic and didn't make this distinction, and you didn't reply to any of my subsequent good-faith inquiries except to state what was already obvious. — SamX [talk · contribs] 18:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- My own experience on GS aside, I agree with EW that the current restrictions are onerous and unnecessary. — SamX [talk · contribs] 01:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Extraordinary Writ
The GiantSnowman restrictions were an interesting experiment, but I think it's past time to admit that they're causing much more trouble than they're worth. Interpreted literally, GS can't block anyone except a vandal without providing "three escalating messages and template warnings" including "an appropriate self-composed message". Does he need to provide three warnings to sockpuppets? AE says yes. Does he need to provide three warnings for username violations? AN says yes. In practice the most stringent restrictions on blocking have been largely ignored, and the community hasn't really cared because of how absurd the results would be if we followed them to the letter. If GiantSnowman still retains the Committee's trust to be an administrator, at some point you also have to trust that he'll use basic tools like the block button and the rollback button appropriately. Just rescind all the restrictions. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
GiantSnowman: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
GiantSnowman: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Hi GiantSnowman. Could you explain how you would use rollback on Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of HazemGM. Is the intention to roll back all the edits done under those IP addresses, or just edits that are or may be problematic? SilkTork (talk) 16:07, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Extraordinary Writ, if I recall, a desysop was on the cards until the restrictions remedy was offered. And given, as you helpfully point out, that GS broke one of the restrictions last year, which was discovered when GS was taken to AN for what was felt to be an inappropriate block, I'm not so certain regarding the "If GiantSnowman still retains the Committee's trust..." I would rather GS remained an admin to do positive work on the project. But to allow GS to retain the tools, I think I'd prefer to keep the restrictions in place for the time being. I think it is possible that if GS made a mistake with mass rollback, and a complaint was brought to ArbCom, it might be difficult for the Committee to allow GS to retain the admin toolkit. SilkTork (talk) 01:15, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- GS's response to ST makes me uneasy after reviewing the case. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 16:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm open to lifting at least some of the restrictions, particularly "He may not revert another editor's contribution without providing an explanation in the edit summary. This includes use of MediaWiki's rollback function, any tool or script that provides a similar function, and any manual revert without an edit summary. Default edit summaries, such as those provided by the undo function or Twinkle's rollback feature, are not sufficient for the purpose of this sanction." KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think this entire restriction is too onerous to continue indefinitely absent apparent ongoing problems. I think I am open to either removing it entirely, or replacing them with something along the following:
In the event that an uninvolved administrator expresses concern to GiantSnowman about his use of the rollback (including reverts without explanatory edit summary) and/or block tools, concerning either a particular instance or a pattern of actions, GiantSnowman must cease use of the rollback (including reverts without explanatory edit summary) and block tools until the concern has been discussed and resolved to the satisfaction of the uninvolved administrator.
KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 17:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think this entire restriction is too onerous to continue indefinitely absent apparent ongoing problems. I think I am open to either removing it entirely, or replacing them with something along the following:
- GS: can you give a few examples of some rollbacks you'd have done in a non-mass setting? Barkeep49 (talk) 19:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- I honestly don't like this restriction to start with, per my normal dislike of large custom restrictions on individual users. I generally agree with EW's feelings here, and am open to a complete lift or something along the lines of what L235 proposed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneralNotability (talk • contribs)
Motion: GiantSnowman (December 2023)
Remedy 1.2 of the GiantSnowman case ("GiantSnowman admonished and placed under review") is amended to read as follows:
1.2) GiantSnowman is admonished for overuse of the rollback and blocking functions, and reminded to "lead by example" and "strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy"; to "respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrative actions and to justify them when needed"; to not use admin tools in "cases in which they have been involved" including "conflicts with an editor" and "disputes on topics"; to "treat newcomers with kindness and patience"; and to apply these principles in all interactions with all editors.
In the event that an uninvolved administrator expresses concern to GiantSnowman about his use of the rollback (including reverts without explanatory edit summary) and/or block tools, concerning either a particular instance or a pattern of actions, GiantSnowman must cease use of both tools until the concern has been discussed and resolved to the satisfaction of the uninvolved administrator.
[Concerns expressed under this remedy are arbitration enforcement actions that may be requested at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard and appealed as described at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures § Standard provision: appeals and modifications. However, concerns that are resolved within a relatively short period (presumptively less than two weeks) need not be logged.]
Comments by arbitrators
- Proposing for discussion. I'll open this to a vote today if there are no suggestions. I'd like to get this wrapped up before the new year. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Amendment request: Antisemitism in Poland
Initiated by SMcCandlish at 03:08, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Extended confirmed restriction
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- SMcCandlish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- Change "Polish" and "Poland" to "Polish or Lituanian" and "Poland or Lithuania", respectively.
- Change both ocurrences of "Poland" to "Poland or Lithuania"
Statement by SMcCandlish
Alternatively, change the scope more broadly to "Eastern Europe" and "Eastern European" so we don't have to do this again for another country in a month or a year.
Rather than name specific parties and pile up a bunch of diffs of individual naughtiness, it is more instructive for ArbCom to simply skim this ongoing ANI thread (permanlink).
The short version is that all of the disruptive behavior types that swirled around the subject area of Nazis in Poland, Polish Nazi collaboration, anti-Semitism and the Holocaust in Poland, and Poland's roles in WWII have simply jumped ship one country over, to Lithuania. (Indeed, one of the regular participants in the LT disruption is especially noted for their intense interest in the now-WP:CTOP PL subject area). While the ANI thread is focused on two individual editors, the underlying issues, including difficulty in establishing which sources are reliable (many of them not being in English), adhere also to the Lithuanian branch of this, well, contentious set of subjects. Even if both of the parties alluded to were topic-banned or blocked, it is clear that others would simply take their place.
I suggested in the middle of that ANI thread that an ARCA to just extend the scope of the existing WP:ARBAPL case to cover LT would be the best solution, since ANI was clearly not equipped to deal with it, but all the "machinery" is already in place for PL and easily extended for LT (or even Eastern Europe generally). This idea was met with a lot of support, but no one wanted to open the ARCA request, so I got "volunteeered". :-)
I think this amendment is the best outcome, because ANI's not going to fix this, the disruption level is high and intractable, the nature of problems within the dispute are essentially identical, and a new "WP:ARBALT" RfArb case would be time-consuming and redundant when this can be resolved by motion. Any continuing disruption in the topic area would be quickly soluble by admins with CTOP at their disposal, as it has been working for the Polish variants of these editorial conflicts.
PS: If I'm required to name some specific parties and go diff-farming, I can do so, but it would be a depressing slog, and what's already diffed in the ANI is probably sufficient, as to the two most-disputatious present editors in the subject. I think it would be more long-term useful to CTOP the subject than to pillory two particular disruptors who would not be able to continue being disruptive for long under CTOP. PPS: I have no involvement in the topic area at all. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:08, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Barkeep49's user-talk thread is interesting. I hadn't really considered an amendment to the WP:ARBEE case instead, just because this all seemed so bound up in Nazis and the Holocaust in particular. That said, given the nature of the subject matter, the more stringent sourcing requirements of WP:ARBAPL are probably worth imposing for LT anyway for the same reasons as for PL. As for ArbCom acting as AE, I don't spend a lot of time in these haunts, but trust that the issues in the subject area will get dealt with one way or another. Aside: A couple of folks at ANI have also suggested just having anti-Semitism in general be the scope of ARBAPL, or being its own CTOP. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:13, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Re,
I'm reluctant for us to start naming parties and collecting diffs without a specific ask from a community member
: In that case, I'm making the ask. I'd hoped to just get a quick scope-expansion motion and let AE or other CTOP admins deal with disruptive persons, but if two Arbs are already wanting to examine "as AE" those most-involved editors' behavior in particular, in lieu of or aside from the scope change, then I guess that's where we're going. Do I need to manually add parties and drop user-talk notices? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:25, 19 December 2023 (UTC); rev'd. 08:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC) - Can't speak for specific other individuals of course, but I think the rough answer to
the restriction becomes meaningless if editors are disinclined to seek enforcement .... puzzled as why Marcelus went to ANI rather than returning to AE
, is that the overlapping scopes of various CTOP things and other cases are not always clear to everyone. E.g., I've been here 18 years but didn't think to propose this as an ARBEE amendment or consider that EE in general might be inclusive enough of this already, because a more specific PL case was particularly about Nazis and anti-Semitism. I.e., it seemed like the Nazi stuff had to be in Poland to be covered by CTOP. Anyway, if more stringent sourcing restrictions are ported from PL to LT, the regulars in the latter topic are likely to figure it out. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:42, 20 December 2023 (UTC)- "I was thinking of adding [RS consensus required] just for EE" makes sense to me, and should resolve the "they'll just move one more country over" problem. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 00:45, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- Re,
Statement by Extraordinary Writ
ArbCom taking this up as an AE matter would probably be a good idea. It attracted very little admin attention when it last came up at AE (HJ Mitchell and I were the only sysops to comment in detail over the three weeks the request was open), no doubt because slogging through all this is not anyone's idea of fun. We issued a logged warning for some fairly clear-cut overpersonalization, but I can't help but think we only scratched the surface, and the dispute continues to fester. A full case might be useful in getting to the bottom of all this, as it was in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3 earlier this year; to be honest, though, I'm increasingly wondering if it wouldn't be better to just topic-ban all the leading disputants for consistent WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior that's wasted an inordinate amount of the community's time. I don't believe heightening the sourcing requirements or imposing an ECR would resolve what is at bottom an interpersonal disagreement among a handful of editors. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:18, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Ostalgia
So as to not leave OP in the lurch after several of us expressed support for opening this case (we sort-of coaxed him into it), I'll drop my 2 cents here. The ANI thread is tainted by a history of problems between two users and by the constant casting of aspersions, but this should not obscure the fact that issues with editing topics relating to WWII, collaborationism, antisemitism and the Holocaust are not limited to Poland (nor is it limited to Lithuania either - I do not remember the exact details but earlier this year we had a RM that would have removed references to the SS from the title of an article on one of the "national" SS divisions, which is problematic). I do not mean to imply that the user reported at ANI was actively engaged in the intentional whitewashing of figures with a checkered past, but it is undeniable that many national historiographies in the region have engaged in revisionism, and this eventually trickles down to Wikipedia, with or without ill intent on the part of individual editors. This is especially true of the more "niche" areas, where knowledge of less popular languages is required and only a minority of users work. Having source restrictions and more community/administrative oversight over the area would be welcome. Cheers. Ostalgia (talk) 09:57, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Just mentioning that I, too, would be more satisfied with a wider net being cast, covering all of EE. I am not hinting at the possibility of country-hopping so much as to the possibility of new actors "organically" popping up in EE countries pushing some revisionist positions. Ostalgia (talk) 06:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Marcelus
In principle, I support the amendment. In my opinion, the main difference between the topics of anti-Semitism/collaboration in Lithuania and other countries with a similar situation (Poland, Ukraine, etc.) is that the number of users involved is very small. Thus, often any content dispute inevitably comes down to 1v1 or 1v2. If extending the clauses to Lithuania will help attract more users and thus make it more efficient to find consensus, then by all means it's a good idea. I think the case of Talk:258th Lithuanian Police Battalion is a good example here, where a fairly simple change proposition ([1]) was blocked by two users, but thanks to ANI an uninvolved user appeared and with his contribution ([2]) allowed a fairly simple and essentially uncontroversial change to be made.Marcelus (talk) 11:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: I treated the first report as a comprehensive summary of the problem I had been observing for some time, the second as an "incident" related to the first, for this I decided that ANI was enough. Marcelus (talk) 08:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- In my opinion, if this were to be extended beyond Poland and Lithuania, we should certainly cover all of EE (including Russia). But another approach should also be considered: should we impose these restrictions preventatively? I have edited the issues of collaboration and WWII crimes also in the context of Estonia, Belarus and Ukraine, and while there have been some problems, controversies, attempts at covering up, they have generally been managed with the regular tools (usually a discussion on t/p). Therefore, I believe that the mere potential controversiality of topics should not be the basis for preemptive solutions. One should believe in the established process of resolving conflicts and problems. Marcelus (talk) 10:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Callanecc
@Barkeep49: This might take this specific request off course a bit and is probably better done at WP:A/R/M but I wonder if your idea of including restrictions like this at WP:AC/PR might work as part of a wider approach. That is, rather than the consensus required and enforced BRD restirction being defined at WP:CTOP they have their own section at WP:AC/PR#Enforcement. The standard set list can just link to them at WP:AC/PR#Enforcement (as a delegation to enforcing admins) rather than needing to define them. This would also mean that ArbCom could apply them directly (per Barkeep's suggestion for reliable source consensus required) rather than needing to replicate the wording in a case remedy. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:41, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
I suppose there is also a separate question of whether reliable source consensus required should be part of the standard set given its similarity to normal consensus required which is part of the standard set. This is probably a question for another time but will likely come up if my suggestion above is taken up. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:44, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- This all makes sense to me and feels worth exploring in the new year. Given that it's off topic here I'd ask that move it to a place like WT:Arbitration Committee or hold off for now. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
@Thryduulf: Yes that's what I was going for in my second paragraph. I've adjusted the wording in my first paragraph to clear it up a bit. Currently the menu exists at WP:CTOP#Standard set for single admins acting alone and a consensus of admins can do pretty much anything. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:14, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
@GeneralNotability: Another option is to make part of the standard set so admins can impose it on articles with issues wherever CTOPS is authorised. That is, the Committee can extend it to the current area of conflict (Lithuania) but it also becomes one of the standard tools admins can use. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:25, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- @GeneralNotability: It's not really that hefty when compared with ordinary consensus required which applies to everything all the time (including sources). Reliable sources consensus required is a limited-down version of ordinary consensus required that only applies to sources and only to sources that aren't peer reviewed. I agree that it would only work in some topic areas but the same applies to the other restictions that admins have discretion to choose between. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:47, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Thryduulf
After reading Callanecc's comments (which I admit to not fully understanding so this may be duplication) I'm wondering whether it would be worth ArbCom defining somewhere a menu (for want of better terms) of sanctions that are not included in CTOP areas by default but can be added (individually or in combination) in situations where they are required. Thryduulf (talk) 00:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Piotrus
I think SMcCandlish's idea of expanding this to Eastern Europe makes sense. This (by "this" I mean issues related to Lithuanian historiography, Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany (both missing articles, sigh, we just have Category:Lithuanian collaboration with Nazi Germany), discussed in academic works and media ex. [3], Slate, NYT), is a recurring issue with long history on Wikipedia, with ArbCom dimensions traceable to 2000s (Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern European disputes etc.). Some folks try to minimize this, some folks try to (unduly?) stress it. Same old, same old... Similar issues can be found for other countries (Poland, of course, as well as Ukraine, Russia, Estonia, Latvia and well, all other countries in the region too), and we know how that ends (in painful improvement, measured in accounts banned, admin board threads in hundreds and arbcom cases in dozens :( ). Telling folks to use high quality sourcing for research in such controversial topics is a good practice that should be enforced for all controversial topics. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:28, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by City of Silver
SMcCandlish says they were "volunteered" for this task and that's putting it lightly; I don't think anybody badgered on this as shamelessly as I did. (I said, I'm going to do the thing where, since I don't have a clue how to make an amendment request at ARCA, I quietly wait in the hopes one of you does it before I give it a shot.
Yikes.) I'm really grateful SMcCandlish did this since this request would have been a joke had I tried to go it alone. Obviously I fully support extending the CTOP designation to antisemitism in Poland and Lithuania. I said at ANI and still say that I'd also support extending the scope to antisemitism in Eastern Europe and to antisemitism, full stop.
@Barkeep49: I'm also requesting clarity regarding what needs to happen to put AE-style sanctions on the table. I have a message where I explicitly nam[e] specific editors and giv[e] an example of misconduct
saved off-wiki and ready to go although I'd certainly defer to SMcCandlish or pretty much any other participant here. City of Silver 04:18, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing how, as User:Barkeep49 said, to make an AE-style sanction request because as of now, antisemitism in Lithuania is not a contentious topic. Granted, if it were, I'd just go to AE so does that mean I should formulate a request based on the fact that a scope increase is likely to happen? For that matter, I'm looking at the message I have saved and since almost every diff I link goes to that ANI thread User:Barkeep49 has already read, I'm not sure why certain editors can't be dealt with there by an uninvolved administrator. It wouldn't be the first gigantic ANI thread to be closed with a long, detailed explanation accompanied by a ream of penalties. City of Silver 21:05, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- Also! If, per User:In acto, this matter can be adjudicated under WP:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe, wouldn't such a decision render the CTOP designation of antisemitism in Poland (and any future such designations of antisemitism in Lithuania and/or antisemitism in Eastern Europe) redundant? City of Silver 21:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Explicitly: two of Lithuania's most notable leaders during World War II, Juozas Ambrazevičius and Petras Polekauskas, were Nazi collaborators who took strong, deliberate efforts to kill massive numbers of Jews in accordance with the wishes of Hitler's Germany. Because User:Pofka knows that, they also know their message here is entirely, or almost entirely, a lie. (They've been on Wikipedia for a long time so they also know what they said blatantly violates the ARCA rule against content disputes.) By blatantly, disgracefully lying out of some misguided attempt to whitewash the history of extensive collaborations by Lithuanian leaders with Nazi butchers, lying in a way that practically begged other users to call them out, Pofka was kind enough to inform the committee that they cannot be trusted to edit literally anything related to Lithuania and should be topic banned from it as soon as possible. City of Silver 00:54, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Szmenderowiecki
I have no opinion on the underlying dispute other than that is a mess. I'd have to look in the allegations thoroughly to make any conclusion of misconduct one way or another. But the committee should by all means expand the scope to include neighbouring countries. The situation in Lithuania is easily very similar in other Baltic states, at the very least because they were under Reichskommissariat Ostland. The same goes for Belarus and Ukraine, as historiographical disputes are pretty clear and there is evidence of at least some degree of collaboration and antisemitic attitudes in the day. The real debate is about the degree this happened. For nationalist historians in the area, it barely happened with their nation or these people were not really "true members" of their nation; but it certainly happened to other nations to a much greater degree and also they oppressed our nation. It's heated, it's part of politics (look at all the institutes of national remembrance), it provokes chronic low-intensity interethnic tensions, and then there are the Jews, and as we know, the Holocaust and interplay between the locals and the Nazis is a very sensitive subject in Eastern Europe.
I respectfully submit that the scope of the motion (at least the reliable source restriction and AE enforcement, but probably more) be expanded to include history of WWII in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Poland and Ukraine (EDIT: and Russia to some extent, thinking about articles like Andrey Vlasov, his Russian Liberation Army or the Lokot Autonomy under Nazi occupation. Can't say about Romania, Bulgaria or Yugoslavia because I'm not intimately aware about their history, but I think anything related to the Independent State of Croatia or Ante Pavelić should be covered, if it isn't already). This is because it is very likely that doing it country-by-country would be a game of whack-a-mole and a drain on our resources. This should include any combination of ethnic relations between each of these nations, the Germans (Nazis), the Jews and the Romani (see Romani Holocaust).
EDIT: A full case is unnecessary, you can do that by motion. I think AE should be able to handle this for now. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 04:41, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Andrevan
As a point of historical fact, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a single political entity at one point, so the extension to Lithuania is a no-brainer. I suspect nobody would much object to including Russia, Germany, and other similar locations from WWII, both of which have very identifiable antisemitism, and both have examples of people taking revisionist views of those events. I suggest the infinite regress problem created by extending this topic could be solved by creating an extension towards Antisemitism, period. It's not Eastern or Western Europe; the Spanish Inquisition or the Expulsion from England and other topics are equally CTOPic and happened in Western Europe, and there are similarly either Jewish-national or nouveau revisionist historians arguing about whether antisemitism was antisemitic or how bad was it in England or Spain. Just take my word for it that this is the case, though I can provide more on this later, but I'll have to do some research to provide the sources suitable for an article, and it's harder to research the 1200s and the 1400s than it is to research the 1840s or the 1940s. There was antisemitism that is debated in North Africa, as well as the Ottoman Empire. There are people who debate the relative impact, cost, the extent to which people were involved. In fact, I have a pertinent example that happened relatively recently at Talk:Maghrebi Jews#Algeria section where there was a heated disagreement about the extent of antisemitism in Algeria. Therefore, I propose broadening the CTOPic to Antisemitism broadly construed. Andre🚐 06:21, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Pofka
I strictly oppose the equating of Poland and Lithuania in this case about Lithuania's alleged collaboration with Nazi Germany and antisemitism. The allegations of "Antisemitism in Lithuania" are not possible in Lithuania's case because the Republic of Lithuania (when Lithuania's statehood was restored with the Act of Independence of Lithuania in 1918) NEVER acted in an antisemitic way and was very tolerant towards Jewish people (there were Jewish military units, etc.), and NEVER collaborated with Nazi Germany. Actually, the Republic of Lithuania refused to collaborate with the Nazi Germany and was only blackmailed by Nazi Germany (e.g. 1939 German ultimatum to Lithuania) and the Republic of Lithuania also refused to attack Poland together with Nazi Germany to recapture its historical capital Vilnius (which was previously occupied by Poland). So there was absolutely no collaboration of Lithuania (as a state) with the Nazi Germany and there was no antisemitism when the Republic of Lithuania was a functioning state (before its destruction by the Soviets and later Nazis). In comparison, Poland is totally different in this case regarding collaboration and antisemitism because part of the interwar high-ranking Polish officials (e.g. Roman Dmowski, a Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland) were openly antisemites (well-known facts and verified with WP:RS). Moreover, Poland annexed Czechoslovak territories following the Munich Agreement in 1938 (also see: Polish–Czechoslovak border conflicts). -- Pofka (talk) 15:52, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Elinruby
Uncertain of protocol or the status of the motion.
For consideration on whether the restriction should apply to EE: Talk:Russian Volunteer Corps. The current discussion at Talk:Azov Brigade may also be instructive, as well as the whole ugly page history there. I also agree with the mention of anything related to the Independent State of Croatia or Ante Pavelić
As for Lithuania, as I see it WP:ONUS should have been sufficient but was never enforced.
To those afraid the problem will just move elsewhere: depending on how we define "the problem" it already is and has always been widespread in post-Soviet régimes. I can source that if need be.
I have been working the past few days on the Holocaust in Lithuania articles generally and will gladly answer any questions. More work remains to be done there however. Elinruby (talk) 23:25, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
PS-Antisemitism is also a good idea (separately) but it wasn't antisemitism that got us here in this case, but unsourced ethnic aspersions. Elinruby (talk) 23:34, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the amendment request or provide additional information.
Antisemitism in Poland: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Antisemitism in Poland: Arbitrator views and discussion
- Having been asked about this request previously I have skimmed the ANI thread (as SMcCandlish suggests arbs do). I find it a mess and think we should seriously consider serving as as an AE body, per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World_War_II_and_the_history_of_Jews_in_Poland#Impact_on_the_Eastern_Europe_topic_area_(I)_(alt) should there be a request about any specific editors which this request goes to some length to not do. Since this request just asks us to change the scope of some restrictions, to which I am also open, I'm going to have to really read not just skim to see if there is enough evidence there to suggest it appropriate to widen these pretty severe and unusual restrictions rather than deal with editor misconduct. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:23, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- @SMcCandlish: normally ARCA will only consider editor conduct sanctions in limited circumstances, with the expectation that most behavior is handled at AE and then ArbCom listens to appeals from AE. For this topic area, however, we have said editors can come direct to us instead of AE. And while I am very open to doing that in resposne to that ANI thread, I'm reluctant for us to start naming parties and collecting diffs without a specific ask from a community member. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- I definitely get that @SMcCandlish filed this with the hope to just get a scope change. And that's fine. Absent someone (SMcCandlish, @Extraordinary Writ, @Ostalgia, or someone else) naming specific editors and giving an example of misconduct, along the lines of what we expect when , that's all I'm prepared to consider. Based on my skim of the ANI thread, I am in agreement with Guerillero that acting as AE for a couple of editors and possibly a contentious topic restriction scope change rather than a case, or mini-case, feels appropriate. I hope to be able to fully read the ANI thread today, tomorrow at the latest, and assuming there is enough evidence there for some kind of restriction expansion (rather than just misconduct of 2 or 3 editors) offer a motion to do that. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- @City of Silver: to ask for sanctions against another editor I'd want to see evidence of the kind that . Barkeep49 (talk) 15:38, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm open to ArbCom acting as AE in this case. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:48, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- It would take some creative reading of the request, but I am also open to having the committee act as AE to enforce WP:ARBEE. I am much less open to opening Eastern Europe 8[1] when there are 12 days left before new arbs come on. --In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 16:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ The 7 canonical cases of the topic area area are, in order: Piotrus (2007), Eastern Europe née Digwuren (2007), Eastern European disputes née Piotrus 2 (2008), Eastern European mailing list (2009), Russavia-Biophys (2010), Antisemitism in Poland (2019), and World War II and the history of Jews in Poland (2023)
- I have now finished reading the ANI thread. I am reasonably convinced that the sorts of issues that caused the Article Sourcing expectations for Poland also exist for Lithuania. So I will go ahead and propose, below, a motion to do just that. However, I just don't understand the multiple editors who think that this solves the problems from that ANI thread. The truth is that evaluating misconduct of the type alleged in that ANI thread is hard, something ArbCom also said at at the HJP case this year. So I worry that we're in a situation where people are going "There's a problem here and we must do something. Extending an existing restriction is something". Is extending this justified? Obviously I think yes, else I wouldn't be proposing an amendment.But the restriction becomes meaningless if editors are disinclined to seek enforcement and ArbCom has done what we can think of to help with the problems people have identified with that. Perhaps more needs to be done. What's that more? I have no clue. But I do admit to being puzzled as why Marcelus went to ANI rather than returning to AE where the editor they had complaints about, Cukrakalnis had already received a final warning (and I think the two uninvolved admin did a reasonable job of addressing the complaint they had before them). Perhaps the answer to that would give some clue as to an answer. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Marcelus so essentially you went to ANI because you thought it would be simpler? If that's the case, I will speak bluntly and say that I hope you've learned otherwise from how this went. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:30, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Piotrus, @Szmenderowiecki, and @City of Silver I appreciate the consistency with which you are saying "this should be about all of Eastern Europe not just Poland and Lithuania". I'm having to weigh that against the fact that changing our normal editing process is an extraordinary measure and extraordinary measure generally means I want more than editor assertions to know doing so is justified. I'm curious what other Arbs have to say about this. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:36, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Motion:Reliable source consensus-required restriction
Clerks are instructed to add a new section, entitled "Reliable source consensus-required restriction" to the Enforcement section of the Arbitration Procedures with the following text:
The Committee may apply the "Reliable source consensus-required restriction" to specified topic areas. For topic areas with this restriction, when a source that is not an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution is removed from an article, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Administrators may enforce this restriction with page protections, topic bans, or blocks; enforcement decisions should consider not merely the severity of the violation but the general disciplinary record of the editor in violation.
Remedy 5 of Antisemitism in Poland is superseded by the following restriction:
All articles and edits in the topic area of Polish history during World War II (1933-1945) and the history of Jews in Poland are subject to a "reliable source consensus-required" contentious topic restriction.
Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eastern Europe is amended to include the following restriction:
All articles and edits in the topic area of Lithuania history during World War II (1933-1945) and the history of Jews in Lithuania are subject to a "reliable source consensus-required" contentious topic restriction.
Clerks are instructed to link to the Arbitration Procedures in the two restrictions above and are empowered to make other changes necessary to implement this new enforcement procedure.
Arbitration discussion (Motion:Reliable source consensus-required restriction)
- Not putting up a voting section to allow for refinement of this motion first. It made no sense to me to add Lithuania to Poland at a case called Antisemitism in Poland and thus incorporating it instead into procedures and modifying EE. But I am open to other approaches that have the same outcome. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:18, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- My concern is whether this will be enough, or whether it will just make people move over to another country once more. As several people alluded to above, there is a lot of World War 2 history involving collaboration with Nazi Germany and complicity in the Holocaust that the countries involved would really rather everyone forgot about. I'm still mulling over the precise scope, but I'm seriously considering the possibility of the reliable-source restrictions applying to the topic of the Holocaust in the entirety of the ARBEE scope. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think Callanecc's solution is a reasonable middle ground. -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 15:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not ready to expand it to all CTOPS at this point; it's a pretty hefty tool and I want more information on how it gets used before considering rolling it out to other topic areas. In particular, I don't think the focus on peer-reviewed academic studies and the like would be suitable in topic areas where new things keep happening (AMPOL comes to mind); they'd only really work in topic areas where the contentious stuff is in the past. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with GN. I think this changes our normal editing process in a way that other standard restrictions, such as consensus required, do not namely instead of detailing how to resolve disputes it details how to create the article. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- I was thinking of adding it just for EE -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 09:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- I am OK adding it as part of the enforcement options for admin with-in the topic area given the feedback here. In other words it doesn't automatically apply as in Poland (and Lithuania proposed) but could be added as appropriate. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- I would be leery of allowing unilateral use by an admin given what we already generally think about the restriction (both its necessity and how some quantity of the community sees it as edging into content matters). You could maybe sell me on a consensus (probably not rough) of admins at AE, but at that point I think ARCA is as appropriate. Izno (talk) 20:04, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- I am OK adding it as part of the enforcement options for admin with-in the topic area given the feedback here. In other words it doesn't automatically apply as in Poland (and Lithuania proposed) but could be added as appropriate. Barkeep49 (talk) 19:06, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- I was thinking of adding it just for EE -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 09:12, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with GN. I think this changes our normal editing process in a way that other standard restrictions, such as consensus required, do not namely instead of detailing how to resolve disputes it details how to create the article. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not ready to expand it to all CTOPS at this point; it's a pretty hefty tool and I want more information on how it gets used before considering rolling it out to other topic areas. In particular, I don't think the focus on peer-reviewed academic studies and the like would be suitable in topic areas where new things keep happening (AMPOL comes to mind); they'd only really work in topic areas where the contentious stuff is in the past. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think Callanecc's solution is a reasonable middle ground. -- In actu (Guerillero) Parlez Moi 15:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- My concern is whether this will be enough, or whether it will just make people move over to another country once more. As several people alluded to above, there is a lot of World War 2 history involving collaboration with Nazi Germany and complicity in the Holocaust that the countries involved would really rather everyone forgot about. I'm still mulling over the precise scope, but I'm seriously considering the possibility of the reliable-source restrictions applying to the topic of the Holocaust in the entirety of the ARBEE scope. GeneralNotability (talk) 00:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think I more or less support the above proposed change. Not sure why we're calling it a '"reliable source consensus-required" contentious topic restriction.' when it is not obviously the case to me that you/we intend this to be a contentious topic restriction solely? (I anticipate it would not be applied outside some subset of our known CTopics, but if we want it to be a restriction solely in that context it should probably live in the CTopics procedure. ECR also is not worded this way.)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Izno (talk • contribs) 20:09, December 24, 2023 (UTC)
Motions
Requests for enforcement
Andrevan
Participants have voluntarily agreed to notify editors of 1RR violations, and wait before escalating. The WordsmithTalk to me 23:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC) | |||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | |||
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Andrevan
Blatant 1RR violation, declined they made two reverts
There are a number of issues in Andre's blanket revert. Among the things he removed was material on the healthcare system collapse, never discussed on talk, material on the number of journalists killed, never discussed on talk, material on early reports of atrocities later proven to be false, never discussed on talk, material on the spreading of those false claims by politicians and media, never discussed on talk. And the material on the killing of multi-generational families. All of this removed material was about things opposed to his POV, as he has made abundantly clear, and all of it well sourced and all of it removed with a token hand wave to a policy that does not support it. But he did self-revert the 1RR violation, so yall do what you want. nableezy - 10:32, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
El C, this is a revert of this, and this diff shows the first revert restoring a prior edition, reverting all the intervening edits. nableezy - 20:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Notified Discussion concerning AndrevanStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Andrevan
Statement by Iskandar323The explanation from Andrevan that they were wholly unaware of what a revert is and thought it pertained solely to edits performed with the undo button is uncompelling given their long and extensive tenure. The same applies to the notion of not comprehending that it is incumbent on editors to check that they are not accidentally reverting on a page with revert restrictions. To answer their question: yes, 24 hours is just about the bare minimum period you should look back over to ensure that you are not reverting beyond 1RR. I dare say that on most pages it is incumbent on editors to look back much further than that. The more dramatic and frequent your edits, the more caution you just take. This is par for the course – a course that Andrevan should know well by now. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:10, 16 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by CoretheappleAndrevan is correct. He was responding to an edit request, which can be found here. Editors who make good faith edits should not be subjected to this kind of trumped up "gotcha" accusation. I am fairly new to this article and subject area. I have in my eleven years on this project edited in other controversial areas, and I have never seen 1RR deployed as a bludgeon in this fashion. Indeed, as I was composing this, I see to no great surprise that nableezy used the same tactic against me [13]. No, my earlier edit was not a revert. I added words in the earlier edit cited (the most recent one was a revert). There was no intent to revert a blessed thing in the earlier edit and I most certainly did not. These accusations, raising 1RR in a hair-trigger fashion, have a chilling effect and should not be tolerated.Coretheapple (talk) 16:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by DrsmooThis is frivolous and content based. I’m hoping there can be some kind of WP:Trout over bringing content disputes to AE. Drsmoo (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by Valjean
Okay, let me word it more specifically. (I assumed that anyone reading my comment would analyze Nableezy's comments, but alas.) So calling out personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith ("lying" is normally a sanctionable accusation) is not allowed at AE? Hmmmm....these are new times. Even at AE, one should AGF and not accuse another editor of lying, especially when other editors don't see it that way. Lying implies an intent to deceive. That's why we avoid the word here. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC) ScottishFinnishRadish, I really like your resolution. Let's get back to editing. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by IennesAndrevan wrote in their statement above that I "User:Iennes added some fun errors like the text "the Israeli Department Forces." Instead of rectifying a mistake and explaining it in an edit summary or writing a comment on a talk page, Andrevan reverted all my edits in a click [14]. This is just pure censorship. I added content showing that the "beheaded babies" story was false and how it was built with mainstream media, I did a work of research. [15]. Reverting sourced historical content concerning such a sensitive issue, says a lot about the user, as in anyone's book, "beheaded 40 children = barbarism". In that section which relates how misinformation is created on purpose, the reader can see the chronology of events and ponder how a democracy can invent such a thing. so, I am asking Andrevan to collaborate with users and reverting no more sourced content without explaining it. A collaborative work is first improving, and not reverting for the sake of reverting. Correcting yes but certainly not erasing relevant material. Iennes (talk) 20:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by Sideswipe9thChiming in here as I'm uninvolved. I'm in two minds here. While Nableezy is right that there is a 1RR violation here, I don't think that's the full story. The edit request (PermaLink) that Andrevan was responding to was not obviously a revert. Yes editors who are responding to edit requests are responsible for the edits they make, but even in a 1RR how many editors are running Who Wrote That? to find when a sentence was added or last changed? Now look at the sequence of events on Andrevan's talk page. At 07:43 UTC Iennes issues a {{uw-ew}} warning. Andrevan responds less than a minute later, expressing confusion. Two hours later at 09:28 UTC Nableezy issues a custom 1RR notice asking Andrevan to self-revert, and then a minute later interprets Andrevan's confusion towards Iennes as a refusal to self-revert. Andrevan responds that same minute again expressing confusion, and Nableezy instead of responding files this AE case and provides a link to it. At no stage in this exchange was Andrevan given a link to the diff where they violated the restriction. Despite this, Andrevan still self reverted the edit request removal once it became clearer what edit was the 1RR violation. Honestly, I don't think Andrevan should be sanctioned here. Yes he should be more careful when responding to an edit request, but this seems like a simple and honest mistake. Nableezy and Iennes both need a trouting at minimum here. I feel like this whole set of events could have been avoided if both of them had been more communicative when explaining the issue, and asked for a good faith self-revert. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:31, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by SPECIFICOHere's how I see nableezy interacting less than a day after the proposed optimistic resolution. I don't think that tone is acceptable in this topic area. BTW "gentleman's agreement", at least in the US, has rather dark implications. SPECIFICO talk 19:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by Beyond My KenI do not believe that "gentlemen's agreement" ("an arrangement or understanding which is based upon the trust of both or all parties, rather than being legally binding") has any "dark implications" in the US, depending, of course, on who the "gentlemen" involved are. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:09, 18 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Andrevan
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Coretheapple
Participants have voluntarily agreed to notify editors of 1RR violations, and wait before escalating. The WordsmithTalk to me 23:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Coretheapple
This material has been repeatedly inserted in to the lead, despite the obvious lack of consensus for it on the talk page (Talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war § Hamas denial of sexual violence in lede) Requested they self-revert, did not answer on their talk but pointed to their statement above (here) nableezy - 16:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
@Barkeep49, I have generally been against adminshopping in which an editor reaches out directly to an admin outside of cases where an admin has dealt with an issue that has repeated itself. I dont really think it appropriate to directly request an admin deal with something. But I do dispute that only a warning should result when a 1RR violation is not self-reverted, that should result in a block, maybe a page block, or a topic ban. I always offer an opportunity to self-revert, but if that is refused then the user is taking advantage of the restrictions that block others from reverting their improper revert and that should not be allowed. I was under the impression that AE is a better venue than AN3 for arbitration imposed edit restriction violations, including the 1RR. nableezy - 17:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Notified Discussion concerning CoretheappleStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by CoretheappleThe most recent edit cited here was a revert, that is correct. However, the earlier one most definitely was not. In the earlier edit cited I was adding detail to the bare-bones language describing the rapes, as I felt the previous wording raised an NPOV issue (per WP:VALID) by giving false equivalence to the well-documented rape accusations and the perfunctory Hamas denial.. An examination of the edit in question under number "2" will show that it was not a revert, as I did not undo a previous edit, and not intended to be one. Inserting As I mentioned in my statement above re Andrevan on a very similar accusation leveled against another editor, I have edited many articles in controversial areas in the last eleven years and have never seen 1RR used as a bludgeon in this fashion. Coretheapple (talk) 17:17, 16 December 2023 (UTC) Please note that I have revised this comment after a less hurried examination of the diffs cited by Nableezy. Coretheapple (talk) 19:03, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning Coretheapple
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Dympies
Dympies is placed under an indefinite one-account restriction, and the accounts Yoonadue and Togggle are blocked indefinitely. Their Rajput TBAN is rescinded and replaced with an indefinite topic ban from India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan, broadly construed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:15, 20 December 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Dympies
As part of an investigation at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Aman.kumar.goel, the user Dympies was found to be operating two undisclosed checkuser-confirmed sockpuppet accounts, User:Yoonadue and User:Togggle (technically Yoonadue is the oldest account and the other two are sockpuppets; I have entered this report under Dympies because that is the account under which the sanction was enacted). In the investigation, Beccaynr noted that Dympies is topic-banned from content related to Rajputs but has been using their sockpuppet Togggle to edit on this topic, by making copies in their sandbox of snippets of articles which they then edit. As I said in the sockpuppet investigation, I was not able to determine which articles these snippets come from nor if their changes are being edited back into any articles by one of the other accounts or any other editor. After Beccaynr's observation Togggle requested deletion of their sandbox, which I have undeleted for this report (I couldn't find Beccaynr's diffs in the deleted history, so I undeleted and added the diffs here as they left them at SPI). At SPI, Yoonadue/Dympies asserts that they are allowed to have multiple accounts. That is true generally, but using multiple accounts to avoid scrutiny is one of the policy-forbidden uses. Using two accounts to split one's editing history within a contentious topic area seems to fall afoul of the intent of the policy if not its letter, particularly for a topic so plagued by sockpuppetry in general. But as the policy is written they're technically allowed, even if I find it unethical. I've gone back-and-forth over the last couple days about blocking or not for sockpuppetry, or to what extent they should be sanctioned for (possibly?) violating their topic ban. At this point it would be better to have more opinions. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 16:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Discussion concerning DympiesStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by DympiesI was ignorant about the use of Sandbox and felt that it is not covered by the topic ban as long as its use is limited to the Sandbox. I thought that only articles, talk pages, user talk page, Wikipedia spaces are the venues where topic ban applies but not sandbox. I swiftly requested deletion of the Sandbox once I was made aware of this fact that Sandbox covers topic ban. Apart from Sandbox edits, I never violated the topic ban. I promise to abide by the topic ban. Dympies (talk) 17:01, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by ZLEAI usually stay out of WP:ARE discussions, but the User:Yoonadue account has been involved in a content dispute over a claimed Indian kill of a Pakistani aircraft at Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21. See Talk:Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21#F-16 for the full discussion. - ZLEA T\C 17:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by RegentsPark(Moved from admin section since I was recently involved in a discussion with Dympies)
Statement by BeccaynrDympies has used their sandbox to develop Mughal Empire-related content, e.g. [21], [22], [23], including content related to people referenced in Rajput#Mughal_period (Akbar, Jahangir). On 17:12, 8 December 2023, Dympies reverted to restore content in Mughal Empire, including a source discussing Akbar [24], and Dympies participated in discussion at Talk:Mughal Empire on 18:16, 9 December 2023 [25], citing sources with quotes discussing Akbar and Jahangir. Beccaynr (talk) 18:06, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Thank you, Firefangledfeathers; I noted conduct at the 15 December 2023 SPI report, such as Dympies arriving at the Divya Dwivedi article for the first time at 15:53, 2 December 2023 to support Aman.kumar.goel in restoring a disputed version of content, including removal of sources [29] [30]; after Aman.kumar.goel was blocked, pinging CharlesWain into discussion at the Dwivedi talkpage; then appearing to support CharlesWain's use of an obviously unreliable source and a source that appears to at best be questionable for supporting contentious content in a BLP. (CharlesWain has recently opened an RfC at the Divya Dwivedi article talk page, citing these sources.) Other conduct by Dympies is also noted in the SPI based on the Editor Interaction Analyzer, including at Talk:COVID-19 pandemic in India#Estimations (Vanamonde93 asks Dympies "You have never edited a Covid article; how did you hear of this discussion?"), and other instances of Dympies and Aman.kumar.goel appearing to support each other during edit wars. Beccaynr (talk) 21:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by VanamondeI'm evidently late to this party. I have had considerable interaction with both the principal accounts here. When I was first pinged, I was going to recommend a one-account restriction and a TBAN; the conduct of any individual account was skirting the bounds of what was acceptable, but taken together they are far too much. I see my colleagues below have come to this conclusion already. I offer a little more evidence here, in case someone had lingering doubts.
TL:DR;, the restrictions proposed below are necessary and proportionate. Vanamonde (Talk) 10:57, 20 December 2023 (UTC) Statement by (username)Result concerning Dympies
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Aredoros87
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Aredoros87
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- KhndzorUtogh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 01:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Aredoros87 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 22 November 2023 Immediately restores their extremely contentious additions accusing someone of having "sympathy to Nazism" after not replying to a talk page discussion for over a week
- 23 November 2023 Now adding additional heavily biased sources that contain Armenian genocide denial and inflammatory/offensive comments about Armenians ("Armenian claims related to the traumatic events of 100 years ago", "support claims of Armenian victimhood", "Armenians seem to exhibit amnesia about their brethren’s participation") ("the Michigan Armenian lobby that in all likelihood has been greasing her political career") and otherwise ridiculous false WP:UNDUE claims ("It is practically unknown to most that Armenian antisemitism played a weighty role in Hitler’s Final Solution")
- 15 December 2023 Makes a WP:PA against me ("Is this the way that you discredit authors that you dislike?") and that I "unlawfully" did the same in an AFD that everyone except Aredoros87 supported. When the previously mentioned genocide denying and xenophobic sources are pointed out to them, Aredoros87 denies those sources have offensive and undue claims
- 15 December 2023 Continued edit warring and restoring these unreliable sources after all of the issues with them were pointed out
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Participated in process about the area of conflict (that is, requested same sanction against me with diffs that didn't merit action), on 5 December 2023.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
- Just that I didn't want to make an AE report on Aredoros87 any time soon after they made one about me, until they made a personal attack. I also want to add that the Aredoros87 account is a little suspicious; the WP:XCON restrictions may have been gamed during the first month Aredoros87 started editing (from 23 August 2023 to 26 September 2023). Aredoros87 dived into Armenia-Azerbaijan articles almost immediately after reaching 500 edits within a little over 30 days. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 01:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Grandmaster: Well Aredoros87 had just asked AE to look at my activity two weeks ago and they saw nothing to support any action, but why not. Interesting you left out that you had only just added this report to the article while a talk page discussion about it was ongoing. As I had said on the talk page, this "United Nations in Azerbaijan" (not "top international organization UN") was for October and had nothing to do with the offensive in September 19-20th. That RFC was for a completely different article. And it is curious why you are trying so hard to include a "no reported incidents of mistreatment against people" quote in the article when even pro-Azerbaijani source confirm civilians were killed.[44] It's clearly undue, and this could be interpreted as agenda pushing. Did you even realize that the UN report is ALREADY IN the article (second to last paragraph) but in a proper context? Did you know that you had added the same information twice? KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:55, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Aredoros87:
- That mosque list article is a copy of an article that was already deleted in an AFD consensus, another user recreated it in spite of the AFD result, so I redirected it.
- I was reverting a topic banned user the was blocked as a result of making that edit.
- Okay, how about a source from the Turkish Foreign Minister? "Reynolds does not categorize the Armenian events of 1915 as genocide"
- I had individually broken down each source to explain to you why they are undue or unreliable, which was time consuming, and these are still new heavily contentious additions you had no consensus to add. And despite individually explaining each source, you still restored the source blaming Armenians for the Final Solution right away.
- What's really shocking to me is, that you weren't involved in #1-3 at all. If you had a problem with these edits, why didn't you discuss them? Why is the first time you are making any issue of them while asking for sanctions (again)? When you added a source denying the Armenian genocide, I didn't jump at the opportunity to report you, I tried to explain to you first why it is not a reliable source. Trying to scrap the bottom of the barrel of my contributions seems to be the exact same thing that
FirefangledfeathersScottishFinnishRadish had described two weeks ago, that you are still throwing mud against the wall to see what sticks. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:19, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Aredoros87:
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Aredoros87
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Aredoros87
KhndzroUtogh selectively mentions diffs in a misleading timeframe, but:
- I added (14/11/23) sourced quotations ([1], [2]) day after Khndzor claimed that the sources doesn't mention it. After his revert (21/11/23), I assumed his WP:GF both in edit summary and talk page.
- Initially he did cherry picking and called the source "propaganda agency". Then complained about Age Matters and asked more sources.3. Then claimed the source was primary and removed the content both in this article and in another article. Again claimed that the source doesn't mention what I said. I listed all the mentionings. Then KU comes back with the exact same arguments plus tries discredit all 8 sources. For example, he claims author has "COI" just because he gave an interview about political and economical relations and his predictions between 2 countries, or tries to discredit another author just because she is founder of AZ-US cultural foundation.
- Calling a well-known scholar "genocide denier" just because he said that as a historician "I cannot make juridistic assestments" is nonsense.
- The last message on talk page was from me and posted in 23/11/23. Then after ~1 month (14/12/23) he suddenly comes and deletes content with 8 sources. Then I restored it and wrote about it on talk page.
Aredoros87 (talk) 09:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- I support WP:BOOMERANG. It's evident that Khndzor's attempting to whitewash one side while portraying the other side negatively, he's here to POV-push, not to build an encyclopedia:
- On Mosques list of Shusha, Khndzor redirected the article[1], claiming that it was "copy" of another article. Khndzor basically deleted well-written and sourced article and redirected it to a low-quality article that lacks proper citations. The user didn't make any attempt to merge the information into the redirected article.
- On Shamakhi, Khndzor claimed to be restoring removed citations[2], but in reality, Khndzor removed a significant amount of sourced information, such as the mention of the common language of the city's inhabitants being Turkic and the demographic breakdown of the population being Turkic.
- On 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, Khndzor changed "Claims of violence against Armenians" to "Massacre of Armenians," arguing that it's massacre as there's confirmation of civilians being killed.[3] However, there is no reliable source confirming civilian deaths, and even the UN mission confirmed that there were no violence against civilians. Interestingly, in the "Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia" article, Khndzor removed a sourced content about massacres of Muslims in the Caucasus, claiming that the page doesn't mention Azerbaijanis and the author doesn't suggest that massacres took place.[5] Furthermore, Khndzor removed sourced information, absurdly arguing that homogenization only refers to deportations and not massacres.[6] It appears that Khndzor is applying a double standard, considering dubious claims of a few civilian deaths as a massacre while disregarding mass deaths of Muslims in the Caucasus, which are described by reliable sources as acts of revenge.
- Khndzor calls sources he doesn't like "partisan" to discredit them, but meanwhile defending the partisan outlets like ARF (nationalistic party in Armenia)[7]
- Aredoros87 (talk) 12:44, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Grandmaster
Per WP:Boomerang, I think it would be appropriate to look into KhndzorUtogh's own recent activity. Today he removed from 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh the information provided by the top international organization, the UN, claiming that the UN info was false, despite no authoritative international organization or other third party source contesting it: [46] [47] Previously, he was among those who objected to inclusion of the same information in the related article of Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians. In order to resolve the dispute, I followed the advice of an admin and did an RFC on whether the UN information on violence against civilians during the recent hostilities should be included or not. The overwhelming community consensus was that the UN information should be included, and it was restored to the article. [48] Now KhndzorUtogh removes the same information from another article on the related topic, despite the clear community consensus that this information is relevant to the topic. Do we have to do RFCs on the same topic on every article concerning the same event, or it is enough to form the community consensus once and follow it? Grandmaster 10:14, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- First off, it was not just the UN office in Azerbaijan, but the mission organized by the UN that was headed by the UN Coordinator in Azerbaijan, and included representatives of various UN bodies, such as FAO, UNICEF, UNHCR, etc. The conclusions were announced by the Spokesperson for the UN Secretary-General [49]. Second, this mission has a direct relation to the offensive, as it came to check the situation on the ground after the hostilities ended. This same article mentions the statement by another UN body of 12 October 2023, so why not mention the finding of the UN mission of 1 October? Al-Jazeera is not pro-Azerbaijan, and the source that you quoted says nothing about civilian casualties, it mentions only military casualties. Further, if we have a section discussing civilian casualties, the UN mission statement of them finding no evidence of thereof is relevant in this context. The information about the UN mission at the bottom of the article omits any mention of the UN mission report that it "did not come across any reports — either from the local population or from others — of violence against civilians following the latest ceasefire". This is the same situation that led to RFC in the article about the flight of Karabakh Armenians, where the UN mission was mentioned, but the part about civilian casualties was omitted. And 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh and Flight of Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians are pretty much the same article split in 2, they are offshoots of one another, as one event led to the other. The arguments against inclusion of the UN mission findings about violence against civilians were discussed in much detail during the RFC, and were rejected by the community, but KhndzorUtogh keeps bringing them up again on a related article. How acceptable is that? I think it is just a waste of community's time to do RFCs on the same source in every article where this UN mission is mentioned. Grandmaster 10:50, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Clerk work (Aredoros87)
I don't intend to respond here except as a clerk.Aredoros87, you greatly exceeded your word limit, and I have cut your most recent response. You are free to shorten your statement to accommodate further responses—as long as you don't meaningfully change any part that has been responded to—or request a word limit extension. Please assume that you will need space for further replies and trim accordingly. I'm unlikely to accept an extension request until it's clear that responding admins would benefit from further info, but such a request might be granted by someone else. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:48, 22 December 2023 (UTC) striking a bit 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)- KhndzorUtogh: you are at your word limit. Please do not reply further unless granted an extension. You may want to proactively trim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- Grandmaster: you are at your word limit. Please do not reply further unless granted an extension. You may want to proactively trim. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:41, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- A note in case it helps: I'm unlikely to grant word limit extensions at this time. I think the current length is already a barrier in getting admin attention. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Result concerning Aredoros87
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- I said I was just going to clerk, but I forgot I'd reviewed a prior dispute between these two. Might have thoughts later, but I'd prefer to hear from other admins first. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- It seems like there are two issues here:
- A87's and KU's conduct at Ruben Darbinyan and its talk page.
- A87's and KU's conduct in the wider AA topic area.
- I think there's enough evidence presented—which I haven't reviewed quite enough yet to suggest any action—for responding admins to come to some sort of conclusion for #1, even if that conclusion is inaction. I think it makes sense to start small and go big, so I'd prefer to postpone review of #2 or have it take place in a separate filing. A narrow finding of fact might be useful in processing the wider issue. I'm partially favoring this process option because I, and probably many admins, will be busy with holiday obligations for the next week or so. Any admin that's enthusiastic about a wider and deeper review should go ahead. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- My analysis of the evidence presented above:
- I believe we're in WP:ARBAA3#Administrators encouraged territory so we're at a spot where sanctions are necessary. The goal of this thread will be to determine what those sanctions are.
- Aredoros87 filed an AE request concerning KhndzorUtogh earlier this month. The request was closed on 12 December with advice to both editors. For KhndzorUtogh to follow BRD more closely, check content they're adding to the lead is sourced and include reasons with reverts. A87 was advised to build a stronger case before coming to AE and not to cite consensus where none clearly exists. Given the history between these two editors of not working well together and that they've recently filed requests against each other a mutual interaction been seems a good starting point.
- Re KhndzorUtogh:
- Despite this month's AE thread being closed with advice to them, KhndzorUtogh says above that the the AE thread saw nothing to support any action against them [50] which suggests that they don't feel they need to improve their conduct.
- I find this revert concerning given the reminder about BRD in the previous AE thread and that there was a talk page discussion underway that they had not contributed to and rather than do so first they reverted as the first step.
- At Ramil Safarov, while dismissing a concern A87 had about sources KU added to the article, KU implied that as the sources aren't listed at WP:RSP they are fine to use and reverted A87's removal of them.
- At 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh, after the December AE thread was closed KU changed the section heading regarding civilian deaths from "Claims of violence against" to "Massacre of". Around 24 hours later this change was then reverted by A87. Approximately seven days later KU changed it to "Reports of violence against" without noting this in the edit summary. Neither change was discussed on the article talk page.
- At Ruben Darbinyan, KU edit warred rather than allowing discussion to take place without this added conflict. 3 November (then started talk section) 21 November (seven days after last talk page reply) 13 December (three weeks after last talk page reply) instead of only engaging constructively in discussion to come to a resolution. KU's third revert occured after they had not replied on the talk page for three weeks following A87's most recent talk page comment and article edit.
- Re Aredoros87 :
- At Ruben Darbinyan, A87 edit warred rather than allowing discussion to take place without this added conflict. 10 November (5 days after last talk page reply), 23 November 15 December. The last two reverts were following KU returning to the article after a break and reverting.
- A87 engaged in incivil behaviour and made a personal attack towards KU at Talk:Ruben Darbinyan.
- Summary: As I said above the starting point for sanctions appears to be a mutual IBAN between A87 and KU. I'm currently considering whether further sanctions are necessary. That might be a crafted revert restriction (BRD with a long timeframe or a paired down version of something like consensus required) or a topic ban. I'm not convinced that this'd work in practice but another option might be that if a source they wish to use is challenged (including reverted) they need to establish a consensus in favour of using it (on the article talk page, RSN, etc) before they can readd it. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 11:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
- This is a difficult situation, that is in many ways similar to nationalist POV disputes in other contemporary ethno-nationalist conflicts. It's made more difficult by the fact that many sources are not in English, and assessing their quality and partisanship is therefore very challenging. I'm seeing sub-par behavior from both editors that smacks of POV intent; reverting while discussion is ongoing, using marginal sources to support a preferred version of content but opposing sources of similar quality elsewhere, using marginal sources to make the most sweeping statements possible, edit-warring slowly instead of discussing (not every behavior is visible for both users). KU is also showing some evidence of stonewalling/filibustering, while I'm more concerned at A87's use of sources (including at this AfD, that isn't mentioned here AFAICS). That said, I'm not necessarily seeing a smoking gun here that would justify a draconian sanction (such as a CT-wide TBAN); and I'm not sure what lesser scope I would choose. Callanecc, I'm somewhat opposed to an IBAN. This isn't a particularly wide topic; I find it difficult to believe these two can continue to edit constructively in this topic without running into each other constantly. I would prefer a logged warning about battleground behavior. Vanamonde (Talk) 13:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
שמי (2023)
Blocked for one week by ScottishFinnishRadish. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning שמי (2023)
All of these are WP:ARBECR violations.
This user has never responded on its talk page, nor reacted to having edits reverted on ARBPIA grounds. Whether that indicates blissful ignorance or wilful ignorance, I don't care to guess.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:שמי_(2023)&diff=prev&oldid=1191418762> Discussion concerning שמי (2023)Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by שמי (2023)Statement by (username)Result concerning שמי (2023)
|
Rsk6400
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Rsk6400
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Crash48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 23:16, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Rsk6400 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBEE
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- WP:STONEWALL:
- 13 November 2023 reverted my addition with the message
stop edit warring. You have no consensus for that
; two weeks earlier, on 29 October 2023, I had pinged him on the article talk page asking whether he had any opposition against my addition; Rsk6400 ignored my question, and it remains unanswered to this day. - 13 November 2023 refused to state any specific reasons for reverting my addition when I asked him on his user talk page.
- 16 December 2023 claimed that most of the draft I created is original synthesis of primary sources; but then refused the moderator's request to identify the text that is synthesis from primary sources.
- 13 November 2023 reverted my addition with the message
- WP:FILIBUSTER:
- 28 November 2023 feigned willingness to participate in a mediated DR; but then, over the course of a month, refused to suggest any specific change to the article, or to relate to any specific change suggested by me.
- 10 December 2023 stated that after a draft of the proposed article section is created, he'd like to take part in the process of improving the draft; but after the draft was created, he refused to contribute even a single edit to it.
- If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict on 24 November 2023, and further warned by the DR moderator on 4 December 2023, on 5 December 2023 and on 22 December 2023 as he kept on filibustering without engaging in the discussion of the content whose inclusion he opposes.
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
See WP:DRN#Ukrainian language for the DR which is now closed as failed.
Earlier, on 20 September 2023, Rsk6400 stated that the reason why he reverted my addition was "because it was without context". Then, on 22 September 2023, Rsk6400 added a "context" to the article to his satisfaction; but he insists on reverting my addition even though the "context" he had required is now present.
The example when an editor refuses to accept a change unless some condition is complied with, but it is not a condition that has any basis in Wikipedia policies or guidelines
is specifically listed as a case of stonewalling, and Rsk6400's condition that primary sources should not be used here
[51] has no basis in Wikipedia policies or guidelines.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- [52]
Discussion concerning Rsk6400
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Rsk6400
The issue was discussed at
- Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
- Talk:Ukrainian_language#Pereiaslav_and_Western_Ukraine
- Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 107#Talk:Ukrainian language#Little Russian language
- [Arbitration requests https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=1185623520#Ukrainian_language]
- Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Ukrainian_language
- After filing this request, Crash48 also started an RfC at Talk:Ukrainian_language#Request_for_comment_on_adding_a_section_on_the_names_of_the_language.
Re "Stonewall" 3: The moderator misunderstood my point, which was "The claim ... is not really supported by the source." (From the diff given by Crash48)
Re "Filibuster" 2: When I stated my willingness to improve the draft, there were three editors in the discussion. I was hoping that the third editor would provide a sensible draft, but they withdrew from the discussion.
I'll gladly answer to the other points if an admin has any questions.
Please note that Crash48 says that I "feigned willingness" (against AGF) and that they continued edit warring at Ukrainian language after they accepted the rules of the moderated discussion. I'll provide the diffs as soon as I can, but please excuse me for now because of Christmas celebrations (Happy Xmas to all who celebrate that feast !) Rsk6400 (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Please note that I informed the third party of the DNR of this discussion[53].
Replying to Robert McClenon's statement: It's not true that I "wanted to roll back the article to a stable version". I demanded that the rule be applied according to which the mediation failed because Crash48 edited the article after having accepted the rules.[54] I also wanted that you saw that you were mistaken when saying that Crash48 made that edit "so soon after I [Robert McClenon] provided the rules."[55] It's also not true that you "had to" collapse much of the discussion. At least everything that I said was said for procedural reasons. The extracts from the discussion (8th to 10th statements) which you presented here are arbitrarily chosen. Of course, I said that "most" was original synthesis. But the most important claim was "not really supported by the source." I'm really at a loss how you could misunderstand me so often and so deeply. I reject your final statement that it was me who "made reasoned discussion impossible." Rsk6400 (talk) 19:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by Robert McClenon
I was the moderator at DRN of the dispute over the content of the Ukrainian language article. When I begin mediation of a content dispute about a contentious topic, I instruct the principals to acknowledge that they are aware that the topic is contentious. Some topics are subject to battleground editing because they have historically been real battlegrounds. Ukraine is in Eastern Europe, which is where World War Two began. It is also the location of the bloodiest war of the twenty-first century.
This was a difficult mediation. Both Crash48 and Rsk6400 had to be warned. I had to collapse back-and-forth discussion. Rsk6400 wanted to roll back the article to a stable version, which I did not do, because my objective is to improve the article going forward rather than to go back. Rsk6400 wanted me to fail the mediation because Crash64 had edited the article after I had said not to edit the article. I could have failed the mediation at this point, but chose not to do so, because I was trying at least to get the parties to agree as to what they disagreed about.
Things got worse on 20 December, when I tried to explain what I saw as the situation. I thought that I was quoting Rsk6400, and they denied having said that there was original synthesis from primary sources. This appears to be an attempt to gaslight the moderator. I failed the moderation when I thought that I was being gaslighted.
In Rsk6400's Eighth Statement, they wrote:
Commenting on this version of the draft: Most of it is original synthesis of primary sources.
So in my Tenth Statement, I wrote:
I was mistaken in my statement about what Rsk6400 wrote about Crash48's section on name. They said that the section consisted largely of synthesis from primary sources.
Then in Rsk6400's Tenth Statement, they wrote:
Dear moderator, the whole thing has become too frustrating for me. You misunderstood my eighth statement once again. The claim in the first sentence "[before mid-19th century] the language was usually named Ruthenian or Little Russian" is not really supported by the source. The source (Flier & Graziosi) is of course a secondary source. I did not claim that this was original synthesis as you mistakenly claimed in your last statement.
Maybe they aren't trying to confuse the moderator, which may be like trying to confuse a jury, but the effect is that they made reasoned discussion impossible. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Rsk6400
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
- Crash48's contributions to the mediation are filled with sections where they demonstrate a battleground mentality. For example Third statement and Fourth statement.
Robert McClenon's statement does a good job of summarising Rsk6400's stonewalling in this discussion. I also found Rsk6400's focus that the mediation should have failed when Crash48 edited the article exemplified their stonewalling and battleground mentaility throughout the mediation.
Both editors also engaged in (slow) edit warring at the Ukrainian language article. Based on the above I would support topic banning both editors from the Ukrainian language. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:07, 25 December 2023 (UTC)